Need Help With Bark And Hold - Page 1

I have a three year old male GSD (HOT) SCHH2 that I am training. He does excellent in all aspects of schutzhund. He has great full hard bites (Zender V. Lusondai son), good focus, stable temperament, etc...This dog has extreme drive but his bark and hold is terrible. He starts great (rhythmic, deep, and intense) for about 30 barks. Then he just slows considerably and even stops for 3-4 seconds at a time. I have tried more civil agitation with no improvement. We train the bark and hold first before he is tired with no improvement. I constantly change the reward so he never knows when he's going to get the sleeve. I make sure and leave the e-collar and prong collar off during these sessions. None of this has helped me get passed the 30 bark mark. Also, he is in excellent physical shape as we run 3-5 miles daily (except on days we train).  Does anyone have any techniques that might help? Thanks in advance.
Worm

How many seconds are we talking about?  How long does it take for your dog to bark 30 times?

So I need to build up another 25 seconds to fullfill the 20 second bark and hold and have time to walk to blind pick up dog etc..

I'd say 30 barks is pretty good....not sure what happens after by your explaination....during training, He does the same intraining right? What are the consequences????

Well I counted the barks for the "bark and hold" in several trials and the average for about 20 dogs is 60 barks. I have been docked points during the Sch1 and 2  which is why I need to improve that. The judges say he needs to bark more consistently.  

It's not the number of barks but the intensity of the barks.  Have you tried little pops on a prong collar to build intensity and drive?    You may also try doing the hold and bark outside of the blind of the blind and have the helper escape and the dog miss if the intensity drops.  Then repeat.  But be careful not to over do this.  If the dog is doing everything else great, I wouldn't worry about a couple of points in the blind.  Sometimes when you try to get those extra 2 or 3 points you lose a whole lot more in the long run. 

JMO,

Jim

"Sometimes when you try to get those extra 2 or 3 points you lose a whole lot more in the long run."
 
jim said it well!

dogs get bored with stuff,too; just like people.  the schh "routine"  really is routine.  maybe you need to mix things up to keep it interesting or maybe the dog is getting discouraged because he feels the rewards are too long in coming.  bernhard flinks says the dog should never anticipate the out, but i think the same can be said about rewards and corrections as well.  mix it up.  one time 2 barks, then 20 barks, 10 barks etc etc. there are some judges that pay more attention to the guarding than they do the barking.  if the dog quits barking, but never takes his eyes off the helper, he will lose no points. 
pjp

Jim, 
 Since I have tried to build up the bark and hold I have taken a couple of steps back in the training. I have been working outside of the blind on a tie out. I have not tried the 2 methods you mentioned and they sound like they may work.I always vary the reward 2 barks 20 barks 10 barks etc. I will try these next time. Thanks.