Input on potential breeding pairs - Page 1

I would very much enjoying reading everyones thoughts and opinions on these lines and breeding in general.
Would anyone care to comment on the potential breeding on my male and these 2 females?

I have done the mating check on database and find that in both cases the pups are linebred on Troll 5.5 or 5.4 cant remember now.

Male is : Amadeus http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/596840.html

Females: Molly http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/573757.html
Glory http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/523305.html

I have worked with Amadeus since 8 weeks of age, shows extreme drives, loves to work, excellent hard, deep bite.

I just acquired both the girls, Glory has started obedience, nice feminine look, good temperment, has some prey/ball drive.
Molly is a heavier built female, crazy energy and also shows potential in her drives.

I believe with some work both girls are capable of working to titles beyond a BH

Both bitches are already linebred on Fero--Glory 3,5-5; Ali, 3-3 on Aly.

Personally, I wouldn't take them back to a male who is also linebred on Fero.

Would not breed them together either. All 3 pedigrees look a bit plastered, meaning not very considerated.

Thanks for your input, I hadn't looked closely enough at the pedigrees and did not see so much linebreeding in there!
Any suggestions for potentially good lines to cross these dogs with?

Can you guys(Christine, Elkoorr)  elaborate for us just learning please?  The male and one female have Fero in the 5th generation, meaning the pups would have him in the 6th.  Pretty far out.

What traits do you feel ( obviously undesirable)   the pups would have?  If Fero was a great dog, as is Yoshi, what harm could it do?

Thanks!

I'm speaking in very broad terms, generalizing from what I've seen personally, by and large. There are always exceptions. I have known and watched the training of several Fero children and several Yoschy progeny, and some dogs linebred on Yoschy, and I also saw Nick in person (not that he goes back to Fero) when he was in the US. I have owned and titled a Yoschy granddaughter (bred her to a Fero son, in fact)--so I've done some Fero linebreedings.

Well-bred Fero descendants contribute many, many good things. Fero is most amazing for the depth and breadth of his progeny--the large number of great performing and great producing sons and grandsons (iow, it's not just ONE son of his who is a great producer). But with any dog who has been bred so much, there will be bad as well as good. Having him in a pedigree doesn't automatically make a dog great--the dog has to have in himself or herself the good things you want to pass to the progeny.

Fero could produce, imo, reproductive problems in females (small litter sizes, difficulty getting pregnant), missing testicles, missing teeth. Too much nerviness is possible--as in very reactive dogs with low thresholds, sometimes workable and sometimes not. Chewy and hectic grips would come with that. Through Yoschy you can get very small size in males and females (short front legs and low withers) as well as the nerve issues and a certain type of hectic behavior. Timmy produced some very nervy dogs too, often with weak pigment. I'm not as familiar with the Aly descendants (Troll son).

Yoschy + Nick produces in its best combinations excellent drives, high energy, good hardness, and very intense aggression in the bitework. But that intensity can create a dog who is good on the field but not really right in the head in any other situation. And Koos Hassing has inbred this combination--taking the best dogs and bringing them back into his breeding program. And the good dogs are *very* good, very strong, very aggressive in the bitework. But the bad ones are very bad--nerve issues and hectic natures and a lack of clearheadedness and "too much dog" for any inexperienced home.

In this specific case, the two females and the male are all linebred on Fero or Fero descendants and if I were making that breeding decision, I would think the gene pool of the breed and those progeny in particular would probably benefit from going to different lines to move away from intense linebreeding on the same dogs. If you're going to do repeated linebreeding on the same dog(s), the dogs' names may stop showing up in the first 5 generations, but you're still concentrating the genes. Unless you have specific goals in doing that kind of breeding, you're just as likely to double up on undesirable traits and perhaps find out just what negative recessives are in those lines--and perhaps lose a lot of puppies in the womb to hidden lethal genes.

If the dogs are themselves remarkable and the breeder knows what he or she wishes to accomplish by going back to a dog with Fero in his background, then there might be reason to do such a breeding. But if you don't have a clear idea of your goal in doing such a breeding and of what the breeding should produce, then, IMO, you'd be better off going to a less closely related stud dog who compensates well for the weaknesses/lacks of the female and brings in fresh bloodlines to the mix.


Christine
www.blackthornkennel.com

Barbnjason--

Both these bitches have nice pedigrees with some good names in them. Ami goes back to a bunch of good dogs--Calimero/Mutz and Bandit are all very good dogs. And Glory's got some good dogs behind her as well--she's also linebred on the great producing bitch Askia.

But I would recommend looking at your individual girls and seeing where they need improving. Decide what you want to produce in their puppies, then look for the best male who is likely to help produce what you want.

Christine

This is fabulous information, thanks for being willing to share.
I am quite pleased in the drives of my male, he is a very active dog who needs to work, he enjoys chasing the ball, doing bite and protection work and is a little to excited when we try obedience work, mainly he wants to play ball. He is just a year old yet, but I think he shows incredible potential and with some maturation will excel in the ring.

The females have both shown some prey drive/ball drive. They seem to have pretty stable temperments so far, they walk well on a leash, ride in a car fine, and love attention. I have just started working them on some basic obedience and will be trying some drive work later on.

My other male is nothing great on the pedigree, has some nice titles a few generations back, but he is a fabulous tempered dog, has achieved his CGC and is working on his AKC Novice title. We just did a little bitework with him, which initially he didn't get, but now is happy to join in. He does tracking and obedience well. Haven't done a lot in protection, but think Im going to start that now.
He is Pruitt's Tiberius von Ansbach  - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/568442.html - and I would welcome any comments.

BarbnJason,

Why do drive work later?  Why not now?  You can build prey drive for use in obedience.

Cindy

Good point Cindy, I actually didn't mean like weeks down the road, I am waiting for my helper to come out and give me a hand with them. Should be this week and obedience is ongoing as well.