Question about Schutzhund training... - Page 1

I have gotten a new pup and am considering Schutzhund but wanted to ask a question regarding it. Years back I took a couple of my GSDs to an evaluation and at that time was told I would have to keep them separated in the house which I didn't wish to do. Is that a pretty standard practice?
Thanks in advance

depends on the dogs, your abilities and what your goals are. 

Some do, some don't.  I think many serious enthusiasts do, not because the dogs are aggressive, but it's just easier to manage that way.  There's no reasona  schH dog can't be well socialized with dogs and people, but you don't want a situation where the other dog(s) are constantly picking on the puppy, or the puppy picks on them and then gets corrected really yard.  Basically you want to setup the puppy so that he thinks he is The Shit in any situation.  You want experiences to be positive and enhance his confidence.

That said, I have three dogs and I don't separate them besides crating the chewers when I leave the house.  However I never had a problem with pecking order.  My older dogs loved my puppy (who is my SchH dog).  The chase and wrestle and all kind of take turns being on their backs or being on top.  They have not over-corrected him or made him act too submissive.  Several SchH trainers have recommended that I keep them separated, but I do not consider myself as much as an enthusiast.  Even though I train and title my dogs, they are first and foremost my pets and my companions.

If you don't want to separate your dogs, you don't have to.

Thank you both for the input. We had four GSDs at the time and that was overwhelming on it's own and separating them would have been just too much.. we had them to be part of the family.
Believe me, she already does think she's "The Shit"... LOL.

My experience has been that I have to work ever so slightly harder as far as my dog being REALLY ready and excited to work with me.  I say "ever so slightly" because I really don't think it's been any sort of setback for us (my dog is 1 year within a month).  If he lived in a kennel, he may be over the top excited to see me and if the ball or tug was the only toy he ever got, he may be obsessed with it, but the reality is that we work great together, and he IS as obsessed with his ball as all but maybe one or two other dogs in our club.  I honestly though it would be more of an issue than it has, but maybe I'm speaking too soon.  I thought he might bond too closely with my other dogs and not have any room for me, or that he wouldn't care to work for his ball because I have dog toys strewn about my house, yard, crates, and dog van.  But so far he is just blowing me away!  If anything is holding us back it's me being a total klutz, having to learn all these new methods and perfect my timing and posture.

I don't have anything against separating dogs and/or using kennels, Schutzhund dogs or pets.  How people contain their dogs and manage their pets is their choice.  I do however take issue with someone telling me I *have* to kennel my dog because he's a "working dog" and it's the only way to get all the drive out of him.  First, my dog is not a "working dog"; my livelihood does not depend on how he performs at the club or on the trial field.  Second, if I felt I had to starve him of attention and stimulation from humans, dogs, and toys just to get decent results, then I'd either get a different dog or pick a different hobby. Now I do use crates/kennels at times, such as after tracking the dog is crated, even if it's just a half hour, or if I plan on doing some more focused obedience I might crate him for a while before.  The latter is simply to make sure he is well-rested.  If I have the same thought of working obedience later, and he falls asleep with his head in my lap while I watch TV, I will leave him there instead.  I don't use the crate/kennel as forced separation so he is only exposed to me and to toys when training and working.

That is just my $.02.  When it comes to training my dog, building his drive and motivation on the field, I am all ears, but I've never appreciated unsolicited advice as far as how I raise my dogs at my home.

That's pretty much how we felt about it at the time. I would really like to try Schutzhund. I can always decide against it and stop if it goes against my grain as far as her happiness or our relationship as owner/pet goes.
I did see some things that I didn't like within that particular club tho. They had a doberman that was a pretty sharp dog and the main trainer beat the daylights out of it and tied it up to a telephone pole. It was at that point we left the field. Besides, only one of the 4 of our GSDs was really a good candidate and it would have not been fair to the others to spend so much time just with the one. Ended up teaching them all to track on my own and that was very fufilling in itself.

If something doesn't jive with you, I'd find a new club.  Not easy in some parts of the country, but personally I will not be spending my money on dues and gas, traveling hours each way, and investing all that time at the club and on my own if I am not convinced of the methods or don't trust the TD.  What's most important for me is not so much that the TD work every dog as *I* want to see (b/c what do I know anyway?) but that I see the TD working every single dog differently.  That shows me the TD isn't there to hammer down a single method, my way or the highway type training, and that the TD has the experience and the skill to "read" each dog.  When I walk out onto the field with my dog I want to be motivated and have drive and confidence that matches my dog. If I am not convinced of the methods, that will shut me down and shut my dog down. 

I am a newbie too but this is just what I feel in my gut and what I have observed so far.  I've seen people come out to observe that are all gung-ho about starting in SchH and then never come back (not because of the methods, but usually because they cannot commit to steady foundation work and building raport with the dog...they want a badass protection dog, or they just want the TD to train their dog...they don't want to take baby steps, starting on scent pads and wiggling a ball around in their yard to get their puppy playing), but I've also seen people come out who were hesitant about the sport and after seeing training, are super motivated to come back and get started.

I have a pup and am fairly new to Schutzhund.   My first dog I started in SchH was a wash in protection, so I decided I wanted  a pup to stay with this sport that I have really gotten to enjoy!
  I do not seperate my other dogs from the pup. He is the only one that gets crated, I don't kennel him.
 I have seen a few problems with his focus because of it.  He acts like one of the older dogs when it comes to bringing back the ball, plays keep away like she does. 
I have been working on two ball to correct it and I want him to see me as the way the game starts/ends and not the other dogs.  At almost 6 months he is genetically there,  barks great, no hesistation.
Now it is up to me to be sure he doesn't see the helper as a threat to the end of his game.  I want him to engage and give total  focus to the helper and not look around to see who may be stealing his "ball"(sleeve).  Not sure that makes sense in my explanation, but he isn't giving eye contact to the helper, looks around instead.
 So I may just start to put him up for longer periods, which won't be hard as the kids are going back to school, crate time will get longer because of that. And work alone with him more than I have been doing.  We do obedience away from the others, but the play sessions have included all three dogs, so I think this will end for a bit as well.
At his young age, he has only seen rag play and the pillow a couple of sessions, but I don't want his focus to be on his surroundings when we are doing protection.  His focus should be to engage the helper.  We are taking it slow...there is no rush if you want to get it right. Takes much longer to fix things.
Building confidence, focus, happiness is the most important thing as far as I am concerned.
My puppy is steady, not over the top hyped or reactive as some kennel dogs seem to be.

FWIW, I always separate my pups from the older dogs as I raise them to do SchH.  They are only together briefly and supervised until the younger dog is 8 or 9 months or maybe a year and even then it's limited.  I have several reasons for this and some have been mentioned by others already.

I don't want any one or any dog dominating my puppy.  No one is allowed to give my dogs commands; and no one ever corrects my dogs but me.  If some one plays tug of war with my dog the dog ALWAYS wins, those are the rules.  I don't teach my young dogs any "manners", my dogs jump on visitors at my house.  If you don't like that I'll put the dog away or don't visit.  I don't feel I need a lot of obedience on a pup and I want my puppy to be a puppy.  This is part of the philosophy that I use when raising puppies for SchH work.  I like my pups full of drive and pulling me on the field to work because they are so excited.  We do obedience but it is imprinting and foundation work done motivationally. 

A SchH dog should think he can control any situation and any helper.  My dogs have ever met a helper they couldn't beat or intimidate.  That is why I don't let others give my dog commands and why my pups always win at tug of war games.  As far as keeping the dogs together the older dog will quickly dominate a puppy, even subtly.  So, I don't let it happen.  I never want my dog being dominated.  

Another reason for separating the dogs is that the pup will bond closer to the other dogs than it will with the owner.  This can present problems later in Obedience and protection.  Why should a dog come out and work in high drive when most of it's needs are met by pack members and not it's owner.  I want the dog to think of me as the center of it's universe.  Everything revolves around me for the dog, food, fun, play, etc not it's pack mates.  They all think the same, they would rather be with me than each other.  If I take my dogs out they all run to me and run circles around me.  I have to tell them to go off on their own. 

Onyxgirl, if you are having issues with your dog focusing on the helper there really is an issue.  The helper should maintain the dogs focus not you, that's his job.  I'm not sure I understand by what you meant by the helper being a threat to end the game?

My dogs are pets and they live in the house with me, even my police dog.  I never had any issues getting drive out of any of my dogs, quite the opposite.  My dogs have always been high drive animals, even my rescue white GSD with all of her baggage.  I teach the dogs to play and make it fun and that is how we do obedience.  I never kenneled my older dogs before taking them out to work.  But, they were separated as pups and learned that time with me is precious and very exciting. 

If you let the dogs run together all day, you will have issues.  Why should they work for you when fluffy and spot are much more fun?

JMO,

Jim