civil drive in dogs

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by Sam Spade on 26 July 2010 - 01:07

Hans, I agree with some of what you say, but I'd disagree about "training" a dog to be civil. I believe a dog is either civil or it is not. Sure, you can teach a dog that is not civil to bite without a sleeve, but to me that is not a civil dog. To me, being civil is part of the dogs makeup. I've seen dogs after a year of PP and heavy civil agitation still equipment orientated. It is what it is! I've also seen dogs at very young ages at the inception of bitework not give a damn whether the helper has a sleeve or not. But you are right. You can teach a sleeve oriented dog to bite without a sleeve. I just don't consider it a "civil" dog.

by Sam Spade on 26 July 2010 - 01:07

Hans, To furthur explain what I mean because some things don't come across on the web. You have a dog that is trained through civil agitation to bit without a sleeve. Now the dog bites on command and is reliable, but as soon as a sleeve is thrown to the right or left of him, he wants nothing to do with the helper. He is too consumed with the sleeve lying on the ground. I've seen it too many times. A civil dog is a civil dog from genetics.

by Slamdunc on 26 July 2010 - 02:07

I actually agree with both Hans and Sam.
Hans, you have made some excellent points regarding drives and instincts.

Sam your posts are very close to what I was trying to describe regarding a "civil" dog and it's temperament. IMO, "civil" is a description of temperament and not the result of training. Some dogs can be made "more civil" through training, some dogs just have it naturally. Some naturally "civil" dogs with a high natural fight drive and strong defensive temperament can be made "less civil" through sport training. To me a "civil" dog is one that will react strongly against a perceived threat with no equipment and no training. A dog that ignores a sleeve to bite the person, or spits out the sleeve to re engage the decoy or threat, with out training. This is something that I test very seriously when testing potential Police dogs. I want the dog to convince me that it will bite me for real with out any equipment. I am not easily impressed and the dogs I choose must be very serious and be willing to engage with intensity.

When evaluating dogs for Police work, you need to be able to look past possible training and look at the actual temperament of the dog and what is in the dog at the core. I like a "civil: dog for a police K9, this dog must also have a strong temperament, high prey, hunt and defense drives. "Civil" is the icing on the cake. Social is a plus, but we do not need or want Lassie.

JMO FWIW,

Jim.

by darylehret on 26 July 2010 - 03:07

Look out Jim, or Jennni's gonna harp on you about the contradiction of having a civil/social dog if you're not careful. To be fair, I think she assumes the high civil must accompany high suspicion and sharpness which would make it less social. In my experience, it may be common but not necessarily a must for a civil dog.

by Sam Spade on 26 July 2010 - 04:07

Daryl, I'm a civil person who is social. Let Jen know that I have been known to bite with or without equipment.;)

by MAINLYMAX on 26 July 2010 - 15:07

Banned.

by Prager on 26 July 2010 - 16:07

OK point well taken. I do believe what Jim said :"To me a "civil" dog is one that will react strongly against a perceived threat with no equipment and no training. " I agre and thus I believe that dog is not trainable to be civil unless he has genetic predispositions. I guess we are saying more less the same thing. For example dog who is naturally territorial is civil. That is inherited trait which many breeders sadly ignore. However if the dog is basically sound and learned from experience that all people will give him hot dog or KFC and thus becomes not to be territorial but hot dog bagger instead, then I can teach such dog to be territorial later because he has genetic background to be that way. This is what I meant by "to be trained". If he/she has no such genetic predisposition to such training then no matter what I do I may not be able to train him to be territorial because he will choose flight and not fight by genetic predisposition. But that is rare. And If the trainer is qualified just about any dog can be made to be territorial....or other type of civil behavior.
Thus the question is the level of training necessary in order to make such a dog. Some of you say civil is a dog which is displaying such behavior without any training. That is not very practical however, since dog without any training is a neglected dog and not very well suitable to be trained to be a patrol dog.
I guess you may want to look at pups at 6 weeks and if they are barking on approaching strangers then they have enough civility via territoriality to be called civil I personally look for such pups and try to hold them back for further training or potentially breeding.
That was what I meant to say above.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

by MAINLYMAX on 26 July 2010 - 17:07

Banned

by Prager on 26 July 2010 - 21:07

Females are more protective then males, I always say. It is because if male get's his butt kicked by other male then he can breed in another day. However if bitch get's her butt kicked her pups are dead and then often her too. That clears genetics pool of weak females very fast. Especially if this is going on for tens of thousands of years.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

by Ninja181 on 26 July 2010 - 23:07

You people need to take a good look under your Dogs.

If you had you would know that all GSDs come equiped with Four Wheel Drive.

Whats the matter with you people?

How could you have missed that? LOL

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