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by Nans gsd on 29 December 2010 - 16:12
by Ace952 on 29 December 2010 - 17:12
Anyone use Clovite?
by SitasMom on 29 December 2010 - 17:12
Mazuri Carnivore Supplement for Slab Meat (per KG) - 58QC
Mazuri Carnivore Supplement for Whole Prey (per KG) - 58QB
Its what Zoos use for their Wolves...... anyone try this before?
by Dre Stylez on 31 December 2010 - 17:12
by sueincc on 31 December 2010 - 17:12
Sitasmom: Raw feeders who feed Prey Model are trying to copy what wolves eat in the WILD not in a zoo. Also not all raw feeders feed Prey Model. As Slamdunc said, you don't feed raw, but you also don't know anything about it. Sometimes it seems like you get involved in threads and give advise about things or pass judgment about things that you do not have much experience with, and no offense, but this is exactly why people end up losing their tempers and becoming very short with you. The only comment on this thread that you have made that is appropriate, in my opinion, is the one you made regarding your personal limited experience with feeding raw. As I recall from the time, your dog got the runs the few times you tried to feed her raw. Your dogs are fed dog food, great, whatever works for you. I won't bother going into why I don't feed dog food, I feed raw and it works for my dogs. Not everything works for everybody or every dog. Just because raw didn't work for you, is by no means a reason it isn't a good and appropriate diet for other people's dogs.
by hodie on 31 December 2010 - 18:12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1140397/
Secondly, Sueincc is correct about salmon and other anadromous fish (meaning those that swim upriver). Even trout have been found to be infected with an organism called Nanophyetus salmincola. However, it is not the parasite that is the issue, but that the parasite can be infected with a rickettsial organism that is called Neorickettsia helminthoeca. This rickettsial organism can kill dogs very quickly and long before anyone thinks about what is really causing the illness in the dog. The statement above someone wrote about sushi for humans is cooked is incorrect. Sushi is raw and there are a variety of parasites and illnesses possible when such sushi is infected or improperly prepared. There are also people who die who eat certain kinds of fish that have poisonous glands and parts that are not properly removed. But that is typically not something of concern when talking about canines.
I suggest that if someone wants to feed raw that they talk to someone who has really studied the subject AND has done so successfully for a long time. Diets often are "fads". Improperly balanced raw diets, just as can crap kibbles, may be really detrimental to canines. A good start in understanding nutrition is to begin with an understanding of what is known about canine dietary requirements. There is a state of the art scientific document on that very subject that I recently cited and put a link to on another thread. Slamdunc is also correct that most vets have very little training in subjects like nutrition (or canine behavior or breed standards for that matter). Fortunately, such deficits in education are slowly changing and improving in many vet colleges.
by sueincc on 31 December 2010 - 20:12
Bacteria, including salmonella is found on many raw meats, including those in the butcher case of everyone's local supermarket, which is why USDA developed safer handling procedures for all raw meats. As a matter of fact, in August of last year, there was an outbreak of Salmonella which was traced back to dog food - kibble, Science Diet, I think.
As for vet schools and canine nutrition, they still devote a big 2 weeks to it, sponsored by Science Diet (of course), according to a friend of mine currently enrolled, also a raw feeder, by the way. Don't bet on the schools ever advocating a raw diet, they know which side their bread is buttered on. Of course stranger things have happened, most of them are now suggesting core vaccines be given every 3 years instead of once a year. Look where the push for that change came from - not the pharmaceutical vaccine manufacturers! I bet just as soon as the big dog food companies start manufacture ring their own version of raw (full of crap fillers and additives) all the sudden the schools will find raw is AOK with them. My own vet, remembering what he was taught from his vet school days, had all kinds of dire predictions for those who fed raw, he now thinks there is nothing wrong with a raw diet. A friend of mine who is a noted veterinarian oncologist now feeds her own dogs raw and recommends it for many of her patients. The times, they are a changin.
Again, everyone has to do what is right for them and their animals. Just remember, these are dogs, some dogs can even thrive on trash. Kibble was invented not to improve canine nutrition but to make our lives easier, pour it into a bowl, voila, dinner, easy peasy. For years the "research" dollars were spent on how to make people think this is what's best for their dogs and also how to make this kibble so full of crap, palatable to dogs. They discovered dogs love rancid fat and poured it all over the kibble...yum.
They have also been able to convince the general public that the average person could not possibly understand or feed a dog the correct amount of nutrients to thrive, no, no, no, we must feed their kibble....couldn't possibly have anything to do with their bottom line now could it?
I leave you with this: Exactly how healthy would a human child be who was raised from day 1 through adult hood on cereal? Good nutrition and common sense dictates mammals require a balanced diet which includes whole, fresh food, even if it is only one part of the diet, but again, dogs can scavenge on trash and some will appear to thrive.
by Red Sable on 31 December 2010 - 20:12
Very good post Sue.
by Pharaoh on 31 December 2010 - 20:12
The article only really examines commercial raw diet. I used Natures Variety at times and it was OK.
All I have is just anecdotal- my 12.5 years of experience on what works for my dogs and what I am willing to do. Also, I have read quite a few books and learned from the anecdotal experiences of others.
Science is not totally foreign to me. I studied biology and chemistry in high school and in college I took 5 units of chemistry (not the survey course) and genetics and several earth science classes for fun. That was a very long time ago.
There are never going to be vast double blind studies on non-commercial raw feeding. Do you know of any Hodie? I certainly don't.
So, all I can go on is the accurate observation process and long term experience of myself and people who's opinions I respect.
My understanding is that over time eating raw meaty bones pumps up the digestive enzymes of the dog to full predator strength, in keeping with the short digestive tract and short transit time. It starts in the mouth where they slowly crush the bones with their sharp predator teeth and mix the salivary enzymes produced there with the food and continues in the stomach where it the strong stomach acids do their job.
Dogs are not like us. Hopefully, we take some time to chew our food getting the benefit of the enzymes. We have comparatively weak stomach acids and a very long digestive tract with a long transit time. I don't feed myself raw meaty bones.
Michele
by Keith Grossman on 31 December 2010 - 22:12
Can you quantify this?
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