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by Sunsilver on 19 July 2010 - 16:07
My first GSD was close to death when I adopted her. However, I don't know how much of it was to blame on her treatment by her former owner, and how much of it was due to her just giving up.
I have no doubt whatsoever that she would have died very soon if I had not adopted her. She was 26" tall, and weighed 35 lbs.
Her owner had to go into a senior's home due to declining health, ahd he obviously had not been feeding her properly. As a matter of fact, I remember seeing this dog as a young pup, and she was skin and bone then. Her owner was a neighbour of my uncle, so I frequently drove past his place when I was visiting my uncle.
Anyway, my aunt and uncle took her in when he went into the home, and they told me she was refusing to eat. When I took her home, they gave me the dog food her owner had left for her. It was Purina Dog Chow, and it was so old it was infested with insect larvae! Not exactly the sort of food to tempt the appetite...
My aunt and uncle didn't want her, so she had not bonded with them. As soon as she bonded with me, she started to eat again, and eventually got up to around 70 lbs. She was always a picky eater, though, and I had a hard time keeping weight on her.
Several years ago, someone on the database told me about a GSD their husband kept at his workplace as a guard dog. It was with him all day long as he ran his business, then stayed in the shop overnight to protect it.
He died unexpectedly of a heart attack. The other people at the business were used to him looking after the dog's needs, so they didn't pay much attention to it other than to check to see it had food and water.
A week later, they found the dog dead when they came in to work in the morning. No one had noticed that the dog wasn't eating or drinking.
Suicide? That impies premeditation, and I don't think dogs are capable of that sort of reasoning. However, I have no doubt at all that a dog has strong emotions, and does suffer severe anxiety and depression when it loses a loved one. These emotions can lead to its death, especially if it is already elderly and in poor health.
Another example; a friend of mine had two siberian huskies that were siblings. The one sibling had had a serious infection as a pup that had caused permanent damage to its kidneys. One day, it collapsed, and my friend took it to the vet, who said the kidneys were shot, and euthanasia was the best course of action.
Well, no one within earshot got much sleep that night. The husky's brother howled and howled all night. The next day, he too collapsed. (Both dogs were getting up there, and were about 11-12 years old.) My friend took him to the vet, and was told he'd suffered a heart attack from the stress of losing his sister. He, too, had to be euthanized.
I have no doubt whatsoever that she would have died very soon if I had not adopted her. She was 26" tall, and weighed 35 lbs.
Her owner had to go into a senior's home due to declining health, ahd he obviously had not been feeding her properly. As a matter of fact, I remember seeing this dog as a young pup, and she was skin and bone then. Her owner was a neighbour of my uncle, so I frequently drove past his place when I was visiting my uncle.
Anyway, my aunt and uncle took her in when he went into the home, and they told me she was refusing to eat. When I took her home, they gave me the dog food her owner had left for her. It was Purina Dog Chow, and it was so old it was infested with insect larvae! Not exactly the sort of food to tempt the appetite...
My aunt and uncle didn't want her, so she had not bonded with them. As soon as she bonded with me, she started to eat again, and eventually got up to around 70 lbs. She was always a picky eater, though, and I had a hard time keeping weight on her.
Several years ago, someone on the database told me about a GSD their husband kept at his workplace as a guard dog. It was with him all day long as he ran his business, then stayed in the shop overnight to protect it.
He died unexpectedly of a heart attack. The other people at the business were used to him looking after the dog's needs, so they didn't pay much attention to it other than to check to see it had food and water.
A week later, they found the dog dead when they came in to work in the morning. No one had noticed that the dog wasn't eating or drinking.
Suicide? That impies premeditation, and I don't think dogs are capable of that sort of reasoning. However, I have no doubt at all that a dog has strong emotions, and does suffer severe anxiety and depression when it loses a loved one. These emotions can lead to its death, especially if it is already elderly and in poor health.
Another example; a friend of mine had two siberian huskies that were siblings. The one sibling had had a serious infection as a pup that had caused permanent damage to its kidneys. One day, it collapsed, and my friend took it to the vet, who said the kidneys were shot, and euthanasia was the best course of action.
Well, no one within earshot got much sleep that night. The husky's brother howled and howled all night. The next day, he too collapsed. (Both dogs were getting up there, and were about 11-12 years old.) My friend took him to the vet, and was told he'd suffered a heart attack from the stress of losing his sister. He, too, had to be euthanized.
by Red Sable on 19 July 2010 - 16:07
Obviously it would be hard for them to pull the trigger Moons, or tie a rope, so the probable one would be just to run out in front of a car. Geez, and I thought the neighbours dog was hit by accident.
I was just nitpicking his choice of words. They could if they wanted to, but I don't believe for a second they can understand the concept, which is why I said they wouldn't.
by Two Moons on 19 July 2010 - 16:07
If a dog could understand suicide, could they also understand murder?
And if so, do you think we would see a rise in dog owners murdered by their own dogs?
That might just be a cure for animal abuse..
I'm just musing, the question itself was cause enough for amusement.
Pay no mind to me.
And if so, do you think we would see a rise in dog owners murdered by their own dogs?
That might just be a cure for animal abuse..
I'm just musing, the question itself was cause enough for amusement.
Pay no mind to me.
by jc.carroll on 19 July 2010 - 17:07
Looking at it from a behavioral science point of view: I do not believe dogs can commit suicide because to be able to kill one's self, the individual first needs a sense of self. For the sake of agruement we'll call that "sentience" here to distinguish from a dog's self-awareness, which no one can doubt they have.
Sense of self is different, however. It is the psychological equivolent of the zero-concept: applying a lable to something that cannot be perceived except in theory. No one can dismiss that humans develope a sense of self around 18mo, when they start considering themselves ("I") as a factor in the equation of their environment. Up till that point, sentience is not existant, and self-awareness radiates only as far as "hungry, must eat" "scared, looking for familiar faces," "comfortable, will relax." There is no self-statement of "I am" in non-sentient animals.
Now, examples of sentience in non-human animals:
Dolphins and other cetaceans can and have committed suicide, but not by beaching. In resource facilities and even aquatic amuzement parks this behavior is not unknown.
Cetacean respiration is different from ours: it is a -voluntary!- action, as opposed to our involuntary breathing. If we hold our breath till we pass out, our bodies start breathing again once we're unconscious. It's the opposite with cetaceans.
If they chose not to breathe, they can hold their breath till they pass out, then die.
Dolphins commit this act, though not as frequently as they used to due to better minimum government standards for marine mammal confinement.
Apes have been argued to committ suicide by cramming their own feces down their throats and choking. This isn't observed in the wild, but seen in captive settings, just like with the dolphins. I remain somewhat skeptical on some of hte ape bits, because it's unclear from my reading whether the intent to choke themselves is there, or if it's just an unfortunate side effect of an abnormal behavior, the result of extreme psychological distress, such as plucking and self-mutilating in parrots is.
Non-sentient animals can lose the will to live, but their deaths due to wasting away is a form of passive self-neglect, rather than active desire to terminate. The self-termination cannot be achived without a sense of self: the ability to comprehend the self in terms of "I" process the concept of "I am am suffering," and be aware that death is a specific end to life. Hence suicide is actually a very complex behavior that requires a high level of sentience. In addition to self-awareness there must also be sense of consequence, awareness of death, and the ability to premediate complex actions involving those aspects.
Dogs, they don't have this.
Insofar as self-drowning, even humans are not capable of achieving this feat without some other factor at play.
The innate desire of the body to fight for survivial will not allow an animal to drown itself. Attempting the act by holding its head, unrestrained and voluntarily, without sedatives, is impossible.
It is possible to hold one's breath underwater till one passes out, then drowning might occur post-consciousness when respiration motions resumed and water was drawn into the lungs; but likewise I don't believe a dog could have the wherewithall to commit such an act.
Sense of self is different, however. It is the psychological equivolent of the zero-concept: applying a lable to something that cannot be perceived except in theory. No one can dismiss that humans develope a sense of self around 18mo, when they start considering themselves ("I") as a factor in the equation of their environment. Up till that point, sentience is not existant, and self-awareness radiates only as far as "hungry, must eat" "scared, looking for familiar faces," "comfortable, will relax." There is no self-statement of "I am" in non-sentient animals.
Now, examples of sentience in non-human animals:
Dolphins and other cetaceans can and have committed suicide, but not by beaching. In resource facilities and even aquatic amuzement parks this behavior is not unknown.
Cetacean respiration is different from ours: it is a -voluntary!- action, as opposed to our involuntary breathing. If we hold our breath till we pass out, our bodies start breathing again once we're unconscious. It's the opposite with cetaceans.
If they chose not to breathe, they can hold their breath till they pass out, then die.
Dolphins commit this act, though not as frequently as they used to due to better minimum government standards for marine mammal confinement.
Apes have been argued to committ suicide by cramming their own feces down their throats and choking. This isn't observed in the wild, but seen in captive settings, just like with the dolphins. I remain somewhat skeptical on some of hte ape bits, because it's unclear from my reading whether the intent to choke themselves is there, or if it's just an unfortunate side effect of an abnormal behavior, the result of extreme psychological distress, such as plucking and self-mutilating in parrots is.
Non-sentient animals can lose the will to live, but their deaths due to wasting away is a form of passive self-neglect, rather than active desire to terminate. The self-termination cannot be achived without a sense of self: the ability to comprehend the self in terms of "I" process the concept of "I am am suffering," and be aware that death is a specific end to life. Hence suicide is actually a very complex behavior that requires a high level of sentience. In addition to self-awareness there must also be sense of consequence, awareness of death, and the ability to premediate complex actions involving those aspects.
Dogs, they don't have this.
Insofar as self-drowning, even humans are not capable of achieving this feat without some other factor at play.
The innate desire of the body to fight for survivial will not allow an animal to drown itself. Attempting the act by holding its head, unrestrained and voluntarily, without sedatives, is impossible.
It is possible to hold one's breath underwater till one passes out, then drowning might occur post-consciousness when respiration motions resumed and water was drawn into the lungs; but likewise I don't believe a dog could have the wherewithall to commit such an act.
by NoCurs on 19 July 2010 - 21:07
Interesting.
Now, a WHOLE 'NOTHER question is the game animals. Cocks and dogs.
A game cock will continue to fight, blinded, broken wings, etc, but he will only fight his own kind (with some exceptions).
The fighting pit bull will go after what ever it is encouraged to attack, which used to be bulls and bears, and then when that was outlawed, each other.
When a badly wounded, exhausted, broken bulldog drags itself across the pit towards a stronger opponent which has been soundly thrashing it, is that suicide?
I don't think so, as I think the bulldog believes in his pea-brain that he can still win. That's what keeps him going. However, to the human eye, it can appear to look like suicide.
Now, a WHOLE 'NOTHER question is the game animals. Cocks and dogs.
A game cock will continue to fight, blinded, broken wings, etc, but he will only fight his own kind (with some exceptions).
The fighting pit bull will go after what ever it is encouraged to attack, which used to be bulls and bears, and then when that was outlawed, each other.
When a badly wounded, exhausted, broken bulldog drags itself across the pit towards a stronger opponent which has been soundly thrashing it, is that suicide?
I don't think so, as I think the bulldog believes in his pea-brain that he can still win. That's what keeps him going. However, to the human eye, it can appear to look like suicide.
by jc.carroll on 19 July 2010 - 21:07
NoCurs,
The tenacity of a gamebred cock (or dog for that matter) is amazing! I think in addition to the "I can still win this!" mentality it's the selective breeding for gameness that also promotes these "suicidal" runs. A lesser animal would run off, or at least stop engaging. The "I'm a winner" mentality is part of the character necessary for a gamebred animal, be it dog or bird. And if they do win, then it'll be those genes that get passed on; and there is definately an inherited aspect to character ^_^
The tenacity of a gamebred cock (or dog for that matter) is amazing! I think in addition to the "I can still win this!" mentality it's the selective breeding for gameness that also promotes these "suicidal" runs. A lesser animal would run off, or at least stop engaging. The "I'm a winner" mentality is part of the character necessary for a gamebred animal, be it dog or bird. And if they do win, then it'll be those genes that get passed on; and there is definately an inherited aspect to character ^_^
by yellowrose of Texas on 19 July 2010 - 23:07
DOGS DO NOT REASON LIKE HUMANS DO
NO THEY CANNOT COMMIT SUICIDE.
THEY DO NOT HAVE THE REASONING THOUGHT PROCESS TO DO SO...
yr
NO THEY CANNOT COMMIT SUICIDE.
THEY DO NOT HAVE THE REASONING THOUGHT PROCESS TO DO SO...
yr
by NoCurs on 19 July 2010 - 23:07
I'd say they can't reason "exactly" like we do, since they have smaller frontal lobes. But no one will EVER convince me that my dogs can't reason at all...
by Uber Land on 20 July 2010 - 00:07
there is a bridge where dozens of dogs every yea jump to their deaths.
read a story a few weeks back about a female dog, upon the death of her pups, jumpe out of a hghrise biulding.
I'll try to find the links to these stories
read a story a few weeks back about a female dog, upon the death of her pups, jumpe out of a hghrise biulding.
I'll try to find the links to these stories
by Uber Land on 20 July 2010 - 01:07
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-411038/Why-dogs-leapt-deaths-Overtoun-Bridge.html
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