I am really confused - Page 4

"Do you think true German Shepherd temperment should be "so damn hard to live with"? Why is this issue not criticized more?"

"Thank you for bringing up a REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE!  In EVERY working breed!!!!!  This is one of my pet peeves in GSD, as you have people (i know several) who feel that "real" GSD have to be uber aggressive toward people.  To the point they are dangerous. Which, in my humble opinion makes them great junk yard dogs,but hardly a "useful" companion animal or even protection dog."  

You actually think a working lines dog is DANGEROUS? You understand that the Bh is meant to make sure the dog ISN'T dangerous, or impossible to control, before it goes any further, right? Every working dog I've known, including a lunatic female I bred, has been able to distinguish between a protection field and a home. If it can't.....I won't keep it; I would probably put it down. 

I don't know one single GSD trainer in sport who thinks a dog should be aggressive towards people.

Me neither, VM I know of no one in sport looking for "uber aggressive dogs".  Also I love a good hard dog as do most people  because all that means is a dog is very resilient.  

I do not think that in general GSD, working line or not, are dangerous.  Uber aggressive?  No.  Haven't seen anyone  requesting that, either.  Although I am reminded of the thread on here awhile ago where a woman visiting a training session approached a dog to pet it and was bitten on the throat and an awful lot of people were very critical of her for attempting to pet the dog.

So FH's comment on temperment is certainly valid.
And so are the comments that well, then, don't get a GSD (or a Jack Russell Terrier!! ) or any other active breed if you're not prepared for it.

Hmmmm, getting back to von Stephanitz....thinking that he certainly advocated dogs that are easy to live with...again, all the photos of the dogs with children, kittens, chickens, etc.  BUT back in the day dogs weren't kenneled, weren't crated, his property probably wasn't a postage-stamp of yard in a development, right?  The kind of upbringing and life most dogs had then was much more conducive to developing in temperment...don't know what word to use here...a more relaxed dog, as opposed to one that is in a house or crate or kennel while the owner is away at work most of the day.

Tess, Dogs also "roamed" more back in the day. Loose dogs were fairly common in neighborhoods and were expected to have stable temperaments to deal with other dogs, strangers on the street, kids playing and approaching, etc. That also required the temperament development you mention, which may be nothing more than "socialization." :-)

 I believe that Stephanitz said that the GSD should be DOCILE and obedient - aggressive,  but only when necessary to defend itself, owner, property etc. , ie it should have courage and self assurance, should never be fearful, but should be stable and calm normally.  Although a working dog with plenty of drive, the GSD as I understand it is not a dog that is hyperactive (like a border collie for example) or overexcitable.  So although a GSD should always have plenty of work and/or play, they should not be difficult dogs to own simply as pets and adapt very well to home and family situations (as most of us here know very well).

When I first came to this board, there was plenty I didn't understand about the working lines.  When people spoke of hard dogs, I assumed they were talking about civil dogs.  I now know the difference and can't believe how naive I was.  Just goes to show, you can teach an old PERSON new tricks... well some people anyway.  I thought I knew a lot about the GSD at one time and have been amazed at just how much I didn't know, and am still learning!  I've seen and spent time around some of the highest drive working dogs and have to say, I'd never buy a showline again!  For me, it's the focus... the working lines are just more clear-headed, IMHO and their higher drive makes training much easier.  There's not a dog I can say I dislike, especially a GSD, but the next time I'm in the market, you can bet it will be a good WL I'll be searching for!  And personally, I don't get what most people think is prettier about blk/red as there's noting more eye catching to me than a jet black or dark sable dog.

 well, I am a show line person, but I do like a variety of colours (and a strong temperament).   I do not think the black/red dogs are necessarily the best, I breed sables as well, I love them and I have seen (photos of) some even better dark sable colours among the working line dogs, really beautiful.  However, I do like a dog with excellent type, structure and movement, all of which are often (not always) lacking in working line dogs.  And while I do admit that many top showline dogs are only average in temperament, some of them are very strong.   in fact where I live, the working line dogs that have been imported here are no stronger in temperament, or firmer in bite than the average showline, while a few of the showline dogs I know are outstanding in temperament.  I know there are many outstanding working line dogs, on average more than the showlines, but personally I have only seen them in videos.  In general the working line dogs are owned by people more interested in competing in schutzhund and so have far more time and effort spent on them and do better in work trials than the show lines who, in general, only have to pass.

Well, this was in answer to GSDtravels post, there maybe more now as I had to break off while writing....so apologies if it does not follow directly.....

oso, I really enjoy your posts, and I think much of the time you are right on.  I really didn't think you were a showline person, and that is a compliment.  You are not blind to a dogs faults and you sound like you really  have the best GSD at heart when you breed.  Kudos.

But Oso, some of us working lines people DO pay attention to structure and movement....we just happen to believe that the show lines dogs' structure and movement is WRONG. It's not that we don't pay attention to it, not at all. I sure do. I made sure that the male I used for my last litter was correct according to the standard, but no according to show judges' opinion, I'll grant you that.