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by Behaviorist on 19 February 2011 - 23:02
I'm not a spay & neuter advocate but if it is a choice I advise clients to wait for emotional & physical maturity if they feel they have too. I see so many behavior issues when done early such as stifiling development of emotional maturity. It's slower and sometimes not complete. If you have a dog that is submissive/shy not confident you will likely leave them lifelong with those characteristics but not always. Not many absolutes in this world. Not an advocate of neutering kids besides in my book they are different from dogs apples/oranges.
I had a client ask about neuticles (poly- replacement) if it would make a difference as the ads claimed and they offer them from Chihuahua to Great Dane sizes. My answer not unless you put the Great Dane on the Chihuahua. Cool huh!!! ;-)
I had a client ask about neuticles (poly- replacement) if it would make a difference as the ads claimed and they offer them from Chihuahua to Great Dane sizes. My answer not unless you put the Great Dane on the Chihuahua. Cool huh!!! ;-)
by Behaviorist on 19 February 2011 - 23:02
Another point I failed to mention is I do think responsible ownership is the point to be educated. In my area which is affluent they charge anywhere from $300-600 which again a client said it was more than he paid for the male. Justified that it was lasered. I believe the solution is free spay/neuter for everyone it would be substantially cheaper than housing & executing (euthanasia) those dogs but like so many other things it's about money not dogs. Just my opinion!
by Judy P on 20 February 2011 - 01:02
All BS aside, I have to support the vet on here who worked as a shelter vet. Shelter/Rescue medicine is vastly different than a normal vet practice. Personally as the director of a non-profit rescue I have had hundreds of pediatric spay/neuters done. Do the grow more leg maybe, do they not mature the same maybe - the end all of it is they do not go out into the world and reproduce willy nilly just because Foo Foo and Fee Fee are so darned cute or because the owner didn't know little Sally was in season.
Now I also have working Malinois and not a single one of them is altered and will not be unless a medical reason should dictate it. However my 13 yr old rescue GSD was spayed after she delivered the litter she was carrying when she was found stray, my old JRT is spayed after multiple litters of puppies in a puppy mill and my Toy Fox had a pediatric spay at 14 weeks (once she reached 2 pounds). The Gsd is in reasonably good health other than multile fatty turmors and the rigors of old age, the JRT sadly has 3 tiny mamary tumors which are probably cancerous, she will be undergoing surgery soon to remove them. The Toy Fox has absolutely no effects from the early spay, she is proper size, weighs a trim 5.2 pounds and is afraid of nothing!
There is no one answer that will cover every situation and every person it has to be taken on a case by case basis.
Now I also have working Malinois and not a single one of them is altered and will not be unless a medical reason should dictate it. However my 13 yr old rescue GSD was spayed after she delivered the litter she was carrying when she was found stray, my old JRT is spayed after multiple litters of puppies in a puppy mill and my Toy Fox had a pediatric spay at 14 weeks (once she reached 2 pounds). The Gsd is in reasonably good health other than multile fatty turmors and the rigors of old age, the JRT sadly has 3 tiny mamary tumors which are probably cancerous, she will be undergoing surgery soon to remove them. The Toy Fox has absolutely no effects from the early spay, she is proper size, weighs a trim 5.2 pounds and is afraid of nothing!
There is no one answer that will cover every situation and every person it has to be taken on a case by case basis.
by Prager on 20 February 2011 - 15:02
1. The people who say that sp/n doers not affect the dog I'll say : I can tell if the dog is sp/n just by looking at it walking 50 ft away from me in 99% cases if the sp/n had been done let say 1 - 3 years ago.
2. Shelters by their caring and good heart enable irresponsible people to dump their dogs and do it over and over. Back in Czech there was one shelter in Prague (1.5 mil population) and one dog catcher. In shelter were very few dogs. All dogs were subject to high tax if not trained( punishingly high like $1000 per year or so) the tax on trained dogs was nominal,... that forced people to give better consideration if to have a dog or not.
3.It amazes me that people say thing like that it has no effect on dogs after someone posted here this article:
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/17/dangers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx
There are others too.
4. People from shelters will not see any effect on a dog because that effect takes about 1-3 years to develop, thus their testimony is mostly irrelevant.
5. People who have one dog and it was sp/n or all their dogs were always sp/n have not much to compare it to thus their testimony is often irrelevant.
6. Testimony of vets is often skewed by the fact that they are making living that way and fees from sp/n is significant percentage of their income.
7. There is no probelm which can not be fixed or avoided by proper training.
8. People who should sp/n their dogs will not and the one who do not need to, will,...generally speaking.Thus sp/n, as we can see, is ineffective in curbing general overpopulation of dogs.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
2. Shelters by their caring and good heart enable irresponsible people to dump their dogs and do it over and over. Back in Czech there was one shelter in Prague (1.5 mil population) and one dog catcher. In shelter were very few dogs. All dogs were subject to high tax if not trained( punishingly high like $1000 per year or so) the tax on trained dogs was nominal,... that forced people to give better consideration if to have a dog or not.
3.It amazes me that people say thing like that it has no effect on dogs after someone posted here this article:
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/17/dangers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx
There are others too.
4. People from shelters will not see any effect on a dog because that effect takes about 1-3 years to develop, thus their testimony is mostly irrelevant.
5. People who have one dog and it was sp/n or all their dogs were always sp/n have not much to compare it to thus their testimony is often irrelevant.
6. Testimony of vets is often skewed by the fact that they are making living that way and fees from sp/n is significant percentage of their income.
7. There is no probelm which can not be fixed or avoided by proper training.
8. People who should sp/n their dogs will not and the one who do not need to, will,...generally speaking.Thus sp/n, as we can see, is ineffective in curbing general overpopulation of dogs.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by SportySchGuy on 20 February 2011 - 16:02
Agree 100% Hans!
Also, Ill add that just becausse you dont see any negative effects does not mean that there are none.
Also, Ill add that just becausse you dont see any negative effects does not mean that there are none.
by Mindhunt on 20 February 2011 - 21:02
Hans, I agree with you and wish there was a similar thing here about owners who don't train their dogs should pay more than those of us who do (I am currently helping my parents draft a provision for their deed restricted community that states all dogs must be trained by a reputable trainer, any of you have ideas or links to information, please pm me). Also, yes there is a change in behavior, that is why many s/n their dogs. I know of one K9 officer who couldn't handle his K9 and opted to neuter so the K9 was easier to handle (the K9 not the handler although I suspect neutering the handler would have been a wiser choice in this case) and the K9 was less intense although he was "retired" a year later (at 4 yo due to "issues") this dog was a brother to my female and I can say he was as much a handful as my girl, just needed the right handler and trainer
by ggturner on 20 February 2011 - 21:02
Mindhunt,
Interesting about the K9 officer neutering his dog. In one other thread, I discussed how it makes sense not to neuter male K9s so that they will have more intensity/drive. There were a few who disagreed with me. I wonder what the stats are on male K9s intact vs neutered?
Interesting about the K9 officer neutering his dog. In one other thread, I discussed how it makes sense not to neuter male K9s so that they will have more intensity/drive. There were a few who disagreed with me. I wonder what the stats are on male K9s intact vs neutered?
by Mindhunt on 20 February 2011 - 23:02
Even more interesting is my one trainer friend advocating for female K9s and having some interesting reasons for each gender in K9 units (dogs and handlers both LOL). This particular K9 (my little girl's litter brother) was 127 lbs and very intense. His handler had ego issues of his own and believed by "controlling" his K9, he was the bigger set if you get my meaning. It was a waste of a great K9. If I could have, I would have snatched him up in a heart beat, Kodiack was incredible.
An example of s/n used in place of good training and handling. The officer slowly began to dislike his K9 because he couldn't use him as an advertisement for his own ego. The dog was destroyed when he became very aggressive and it was such a waste !!!
An example of s/n used in place of good training and handling. The officer slowly began to dislike his K9 because he couldn't use him as an advertisement for his own ego. The dog was destroyed when he became very aggressive and it was such a waste !!!
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