I am really confused - Page 3

"The same mindset is on the working side of the world, where many breeders want dogs that can compete against the likes of Mals and Dutch and so emphasis is on drive, desire to work, heart for the fight or at least that 'go all day' temperment that makes many working line GSDs so damn hard to live with for the 'normal' pet family."

And is this true to the standard of the GSD?  Do you think Capt. Max, with all those photos of GSD in his book, GSD with kittens, with poultry, with little children, etc. etc.  Do you think true German Shepherd temperment should be "so damn hard to live with"?  Why is this issue not criticized more?

"Does someone who is trying to breed more and more drive want to risk a cross back into the 'softer' showline and again, maybe end up with 1% being the cross but the other 99% being useless? (The term useless is used here in terms of breeding, not in the sense of dogs being useless)"

Don't you think that realistically most dogs are "useless" for breeding by this standard?  Breed the best to the best.  If we are honest, there is almost always a "best" in every and any litter.  That's the one that should be bred, and if it's not an improvement on the parents, it shouldn't be bred.  So where do those dogs go now?

I don't breed.

I just hear the same story on both sides.  Showlines don't want to breed in working dogs and risk 'ruining' their looks and workinglines don't want to breed to showlines and risk 'ruining' their working ability.

Is it a logical mindset?  I couldn't tell you, I'm just saying what is there and why we keep pushing further and further in such a split between the two types.

GSDrules, PRECISELY! That is why I responded as I did. Thanks for getting the point. I also ppm'd the OP, as that may be the only way to discuss a topic intelligently, once a thread [predictably] devolves.

Do you think true German Shepherd temperment should be "so damn hard to live with"? Why is this issue not criticized more?

Thank you for bringing up a REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE!  In EVERY working breed!!!!!  This is one of my pet peeves in GSD, as you have people (i know several) who feel that "real" GSD have to be uber aggressive toward people.  To the point they are dangerous. Which, in my humble opinion makes them great junk yard dogs,but hardly a "useful" companion animal or even protection dog.  

This is an issue which really needs more airing. And it happens in all the "performance" bred breeds which find themselves in pet homes. 

The solution to me seems simple: those with "extreme" dogs must breed ONLY as much as they can have appropriate homes.  The pups from these litters do NOT belong on Craig's List or sold into "pet only" homes. Simply not fair to the dog.  If the dogs are good enough, the breeder should have a waiting list. 

Having said that, not every pup in a "high drive" litter will have high drive!  And this is tough, as there is no puppy test alive which can guarantee you which pup is which. Boy, have I found that out!!!!  ; )

I've never been impressed with the whole "hard dog" thing: to me it means dogs which are n ot biddable - something von Stephanitz would NOT have approved of!!!!!!!   One reason the GSD is so popular with military/police  trainers is that they are "hard to wreck" and can stand up to the sometimes (often) really awful training in military/police situations. 

I don't want to sidetrack this thread (nor interupt the usual bickering) but wanted to comment on what I thought was a really important point made. 

No Curs and Tracker -- Your posts are the best I have read on here in a long, long time.....because you are being honest about the situation.   Thanks.

First off, I have always had VERY high drive working line GSDs and never would I describe any of them as hard to live with.  They have all been a pure joy to work with and live with.  That said, they do require adequate daily  mental and physical exercise, they are not the dog for the person who sticks the dog in the yard all day, or comes home from work & plants themselves in front of the TV, and who's idea of exercise is a walk around the block once a week, NO self respecting GSD (show or working) belongs in that kind of environment! 

Now, my opinion about the working/show split: 

If you look at any popular breed in working/herding group (dobes, GSDs, even BCs now have a split, etc.) or sporting/retrieving  group (labs, goldens, spaniels, etc.) , even terriers, you will find there is a split between show lines and working lines.  It's nothing new nor is it bad, it simply "is".    I believe  Max v Stephanitz created a most versatile BREED, not necessarily each individual dog, but the breed as a whole is versatile.   

Isn't this a similar situation even with Malinois?  I know that if you (for example) watch the Mali BoB class  video at the last Westminster KC Show, the dogs seem to have a much more profuse coat, they are a little bigger, much showier, than their working counterparts.  Also if you look at the class list,  I couldn't find  a working title amongst the Malinois listed.  

So perhaps having a split isn't such a bad thing.  If at least, the sides could understand each other a little better maybe.

Yes, sueincc. but that's you.  FHTracker did say, "for the normal pet-owning family."  And c'mon   just because someone isn't a SchH aficionado who loves "VERY high drive" dogs does not mean they're TV slugs who go for one walk around the block once a week.

For the normal, average  pet owning family I think  a nice poodle  or maybe a basset hound will fit the bill.  For an active, outdoorsy  family (or single person), a lab or  a working or show line GSD  might be just the ticket!    I don't think GSDs are average dogs for average people, they are very special and deserve the best caretakers.