What would you DO? - Page 1

I provided a stud for a female, 3 years old , a maiden , and she was so agressive to my stud, that we had to AI her....I refused to let her tear him up; she ofa'd good and I thought her pedigree was fair so the contract was signed and in that paper, it states upon birth of pups I am to inspect litter and then upon my approval provide the info and signature for the akc application...the female was xrayed three days ago, three pups ???? supposidly, and early yesterday she gave birth to three male pups and the owner fell asleep and upon awakening two pups were half eaten...she removed the one tiny male pup and thought she was finished....she put it on heat pad, and gave back to nurse and thought things were ok   Matters turned worse in 6 hours another pup emerged and she found her eating it.....I told her this was not a breed bitch and get rid of her ,,,and I pointed out other problems...there are now facts coming forth about this female I do not like , so I do not want this one tiny male pup, registered and carry on these and other traits she has told me she found out about the littermates...I told my vet to kick my deireire all the way to Germany , if I ever agree to stud a dog again.....She said she probably would keep the little thing if it lives and I just cannot agree to register such pup......the agression of the female was much more than just a bitchy female,....as I have seen plenty of that in breeding, it was a different kind , one not acceptible....

without knowing a whole lot more than what has been described I would find it hard to pass judgement on this female...  She's a maiden and sounds like owner is kinda (duuuhhhh) when it comes to whelping (No offense intended). 

 Some females have that inherited over cautious over zealous "cleaning" and that includes cleaning of the "nest" if it's dead it's gonna attract prediation so she will often eat a dead offspring, or an offspring that is not going to survive to prevent attracting predators to her "nest"

I don't know all of the facts by what you have described, and would reserve judgement myself.

Bottom line you have to do what you feel is right given the circumstances.  just keep in mind a maiden bitch with an inexpeirienced whelping partner is a recipe for complete disaster.

Howdy,

Your stud did what he was aspected to do - the female carried and delivered pups. So far so good, a maiden female can be bitchy, i would say pretty normal, whole "new" situation maybe also a little scared and therefor a bit agressive. Just my thoughts, as i have not seen it.

What comes to my mind about the eating the pups, is, may be there was something wrong with the pups healthwise ? The bitch might have felt that and just did what nature dictates to do : Get rid of the sick ones and have more milk for the ones that are more likely to survive. I had that in the B- litter and it sure was not a very pleasant sight but i am a firm believer in NOT messing with natures path to much. We are already doing it, and sometimes i am not sure if it is for the better. It occures to me, that it is not always for the best to do everything, just because it can be done. In my recent litter was a pup, that seemed to be a little weak and mom did not really want to nurse him. So i helped the little one and she accepted it, because i wished so. But as soon as i would be not around she would push him away. The pup did not survive because, he was not capable to drink. Dont know if i use the right english term, but he had no "suction reflex" to get the milk. Mom knew that from start and acted accordingly. Always sad, but imo the best solution.

Now to the lady with that female. Apparently she was not very experienced, or she plain simply didnt care to much. This is not meant to be offensive, but i see it as a mayor problem in the USA, that there are just not set rules in place for breeding. Basicly anyone can do as pleased and many do just that. Starting breeding is a hard task with many dissapointments involved and even harder when there is no guidline to get you through it. That a female will always eat her pups, if did it once, i do not believe it. Mine did not. Would i watch with extra care, knowing that she is capable of doing so, you bet, would i interfere if i realize the pup is deadborn and she wants to eat it, nope, let her do as nature dictates her to do. I am aware that this sounds hard and gruel, and it does pop to my mind when my girl wants to give me a kiss, but there are things that are bound to happen, whether we like them or not. Still all i said, will not keep me from doing everything to have healthy pups.

Yellowrose, you learned a lesson - it's not happening to you again. Of course you are dissapointed and maybe a little angry towards that lady, hey, nothing really you can do about. But sure it is not a nice thing to go through.

Things would definetly be better, if future breeders would have to raise and title their dogs before they are entitled to breed with them. Just the fact that they would have to work with the animal over a longer period, would make them better in understanding the breed and the needs of their stock. On top they would be around other handlers and could "steal" knowledge from  others just by listening closely. That alone would benefit the whole situation.

Kind Regards Ulli Dresbach

Did she pay you for stud services?? If she did, then you need to sign the papers and let her register her puppy if it even lives. There is a really good chance that if she leaves them alone, there will be no puppy to worry about. There are lots of females like this. Certainly not my choice for a breeding female. But there are experienced breeders who have females who can't be left with their pups  and there are plenty of females out there who are super moms. I prefer and will only own the latter. One never knows with a maiden bitch, what's important is that she be supervised.. pretty heavy sleeper is all I can say.

I would also never sign or agree to a stud contract that states the stud owner can approve or disapprove my litter for which I provided all the research to make that choice, progesterone testing, travel and prenatal care not to mention what we do afterwards and how we raise our puppies. Not to mention the time and love, sweat and tears involved in raising and titling my female.  

Of course, I've also never signed a contract with a stud owner either.. nor have I ever been asked to.

Just my thoughts.....

Since DKiah mentioned it, i would like to ad that my female is in all aspects a good mother, caring and providing, i could not wish for anything else. Matter of fact, a Vet and also more experienced breeders then me, were basicly saying that it is good when a female still has natural instincts.

As to the paperwork, i am not very acustomed to the dealings & procedures in the states, but as puppy owner i would not like the idear that i could not register my pups, because the stud owner declines to sign. What DKiah says about this makes sense to me.

Ulli Dresbach

Relating to your discussion guys... I need you opinion about stud servicing.

I have a proven bitch and was originally planned for breeding to a well known stud which was awarded top notch in the progeny groups. I paid the initial stud fee plus an agreement of one puppy share for the stud owner (no one told me it had to be the stud owner who picks first...)

Then the breeding was unsuccessful (knowing the stud was overused...as I've heard from one of the kennel employees) I learned they're momentarily suspending the stud services of that dog...

I had no choice but to select a second stud for a repeat of the stud service I paid for... And it was successfull..

Now, my question is??? "do you have to fullfill the puppy-sharing agreement??? Since the reason why the first breeding did not took place was because the recommended stud was not in good condition??? I was told to do a pap-smearing to ensure the bitch heat was in timing ... but no one told me beforehand that the stud was overused... something about the sperms becoming too immature and non-motile