Hypothetical question dark red sables x black & Rd

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by Brittany on 07 May 2007 - 21:05

Before I go on asking the question.. ONLY reply if you have a serious answer. I do not want bashing posts.

I want to ask a Hypothetical question.

Note: I do not have any plans to breed Zambi..

I want to breed Zambi with a dark red sable working line that does not have very high drives, only high drives. What kind of puppies would Zambi produce? I choose dark red sable to improve the pigmentation. Just Hypothetical.. would I get more sables or some dark black and reds?

you could look at Zambi's photo's at http://germanshepherdlitters.com/modules/userpage/index.php?page_id=1

So use your imagination :)

by marci on 07 May 2007 - 22:05

Browsing through the Arlett website I stubled upon Margit Dorsen's dissertation about the Sable GSD...

Here's my understanding of the article...

Only when one parent GSD is sable will sable dogs be produced// Sable can improve the pigmentation because its reversed agouti, litter proportions vary from 3:1 to 2:2 (you'll still get poor pigmented progeny) // Coat length can be standardized (good for ZAMBI)// Temperament wise...It depends... A sable dog has no influence other than pigment...

by live4schutzhund on 07 May 2007 - 22:05

If the female is pure Agouti (Sable awaw) then here are the results of the breeding.

Maternal genotype specified: awaw
Maternal phenotype: Red Agouti (black nosed)
Paternal genotype specified: asas
Paternal phenotype: Black and Red Saddled

1 potential genotypes:
100.00% awas Hd=17.0 Edyfair Plxno - Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

1 potential phenotypes:
100.00% Red Agouti (black nosed)

1 potential phenotypes with carried traits:
100.00% Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

1 potential carried traits:
100.00% saddled

If the female is Agouti (Sable) carrying saddle (awas) here are the results.

Maternal genotype specified: awas
Maternal phenotype: Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled
Paternal genotype specified: asas
Paternal phenotype: Black and Red Saddled

2 potential genotypes:
50.00% asas Hd=17.0 Edyfair Plxno - Black and Red Saddled
50.00% awas Hd=17.0 Edyfair Plxno - Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

2 potential phenotypes:
50.00% Black and Red Saddled
50.00% Red Agouti (black nosed)

2 potential phenotypes with carried traits:
50.00% Black and Red Saddled
50.00% Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

2 potential carried traits:
50.00% None
50.00% saddled

If the female is Agouti (Sable) carrying black recessive (awa), doesnt sound like she does though, here are the results.

Maternal genotype specified: awa
Maternal phenotype: Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying recessive black
Paternal genotype specified: asas
Paternal phenotype: Black and Red Saddled

2 potential genotypes:
50.00% aas Hd=17.0 Edyfair Plxno - Black and Red Saddled carrying recessive black
50.00% awas Hd=17.0 Edyfair Plxno - Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

2 potential phenotypes:
50.00% Black and Red Saddled
50.00% Red Agouti (black nosed)

2 potential phenotypes with carried traits:
50.00% Black and Red Saddled carrying recessive black
50.00% Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

2 potential carried traits:
50.00% recessive black
50.00% saddled

If the female is Agouti (Sable) carring Tan Points = Bi Color (awat) here are the results.

Maternal genotype specified: awat
Maternal phenotype: Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying tan point
Paternal genotype specified: asas
Paternal phenotype: Black and Red Saddled

2 potential genotypes:
50.00% atas Hd=17.0 Edyfair Plxno - Black and Red Saddled carrying tan point
50.00% awas Hd=17.0 Edyfair Plxno - Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

2 potential phenotypes:
50.00% Black and Red Saddled
50.00% Red Agouti (black nosed)

2 potential phenotypes with carried traits:
50.00% Black and Red Saddled carrying tan point
50.00% Red Agouti (black nosed) carrying saddled

2 potential carried traits:
50.00% tan point
50.00% saddled

by live4schutzhund on 07 May 2007 - 22:05

You want to find a male who is awas, this will produce some richly pigmented black and red saddles.

Sorry, didnt realize Zambi was a female. The chart above still works, just reverse male/female.

by Trailrider on 08 May 2007 - 01:05

Britanny Zambi looks like she may have a recessive gene for fading black. Just going by the pics. JMO and not to take offensively because my most favorite, missed male had similar coloring. I think breeding to a dark or black sable will improve on the color, not sure what you mean by dark red sable, do you mean a dark sable or very red sable? Or breed to a black dog if you want to increase the black coloring.IMO when either is done it helps increase the black on the dog/puppies. Also has far as the drives go, well it is a crap shoot IMO. If they both are stable with high drive my guess is that is what you get unless the owners squish it.

by yellowrose of Texas on 08 May 2007 - 01:05

Brit: good work pic David Landeau is great...my greatest male is out of his wifes bloodline many years back Anika von Fuerstenburg bred to Orthos v Tiekerhook...Ive spoken to her times again...they both are the "cream de class " in this field.....so I bred my dark red sable Korbelbach male to my red sable female , whose mom was grey sable and sire was blk/red from old lines of Busecker Schloss and zilla Wiethurchen, who was a sable(WG) and I had beautiful 3 sables turned out all heavy boned and red sable dark and 5 black /red of which one is here now with me and he is very dark black /red dark and heavy black face mask...... the balance in my lines with sables , grey and red on both my beginning sire and dam seem to give me heavy pigmented dogs....Out of all the litters I do have four females and three males that have a large portion of the llighter cream on necks and heads that go back to someone in the ancestry but still have red very heavy on legs with the lighter intertwined....My sable , grey sable I breed to a Pirol Enclavehof and SteffenHaus, mega black/red only genes and get only two sables and all the rest are blk/red s with black spots on their tongues......Rosie is a Pirol granddaughter and I bred her to the blk/red Vissum gr grandson and of course get all blk/reds even though, Rosie is an Orthos gggreatdaughter with sables in the back of her grandmom and grandfather.....gets comfusing.......

by Ryan on 08 May 2007 - 03:05

Nice website Britney. Love the red pigment. The black is fading. Topline incorrect. Get him titled and surveyed before breeding plans. I understand your excitement to breed and this is hypothetical . Post the Koer and then we can be of some help. Keep up the good work with your training.

by SchHBabe on 08 May 2007 - 12:05

live4,

I love your description of the genetics. Where did you get your stats? I'd like to learn more about the combinations myself.

Yvette

by Ryan on 08 May 2007 - 20:05

I have seen similar genetic models but that one is great. I have used Malcolm Willis books for years. I also have a crude excell model. This is a great tool live 4.

by Ryan on 08 May 2007 - 22:05

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/125881.html Hi Brittany. Here is a Natz son that I used to train with. He is now in the Ukraine. One of the best GSDs I have ever been around. Competed in Iron Dog comps. He had a pigment fault but produced excellent pups. Thought you might want to see him. His pups were bred correctly and had beautiful coats with dark black. A recesive gene.

Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top

Hypothetical question dark red sables x black & Rd - Page 1

Pedigree Database