Question About Max Cerny Obelisk - Page 1

Pedigree Database


by gsdkiera on 10 July 2020 - 22:07

I have a question about the dog Max Cerny Obelisk. He is sable, yet his parents, Ipor Kiddo and Erika Cerny Obelisk, are breed surveyed black with dark features and black with light features and appear to be black and tan. Since 2 black and tan dogs can not produce a sable, what is going on here? What am I missing?

Western Rider

by Western Rider on 11 July 2020 - 01:07

They are not Black and Tans that is why you can have sables


by Hundmutter on 11 July 2020 - 02:07

Mum Erika is a very odd colour judging from one photo; but then Timo was a sable who looked 'black & white' from some angles / in some lighting, according to my late mentor who actually saw him. Erika is from a line of sables, so she certainly has sable genetics in her makeup.

by duke1965 on 11 July 2020 - 09:07

in old lines there are sables who look somewhat like having a saddle

by duke1965 on 11 July 2020 - 09:07

by gsdkiera on 11 July 2020 - 10:07

Breed survey for Ipor Kiddo 5KX5/55, which, if I am reading it correctly means black with dark features. Breed survey for Erika Cerny Obelisk breed survey 5CI1/P, black with light features. In neither of these breed surveys do I find a V or a U for sable, and to be sable, one of the dog's parents has to be sable. I am questioning this because Max is my dog's maternal grandsire and someone is questioning his pedigree's validity because of the color discrepancy.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 11 July 2020 - 10:07

gsdkiera, is the dog in front of you the dog you wanted? Are you happy with him and what he does and offers?
If that answer is yes, quit worrying what everyone else thinks, says or does, you have the dog you want.


by Hundmutter on 11 July 2020 - 10:07

Agree with Hired Dog. Also, if the query is with your dog's Grandfather (rather than its parents) then it becomes increasingly difficult for most people to get terribly worked up about the rights & wrongs of the pedigree. Even when you are breeding puppies with your dog, sometimes ! Unless the query is being stirred up by someone with ulterior motives.

Leaving the dog's sire out of the picture, because he looks straight up saddle-marked black & gold to me - though again, that's on the strength of my only seeing one photograph - let's concentrate on Erika, if you DO wish to investigate further. If Erika is 'really' a sable, that solves your problem of having at least one of the parents of the dog be a sable. And because she is the parent whose antecedents are being queried.  Now, because I cannot go 'hands on' with her, & for the reason I stated above, that there have been sables who did not look very sable (not like Max, whose pic shows there can be no question as to what colour HE was / is), I have to ask: was the Survey conducted on Erika - where she isn't marked as a sable - completed properly in all aspects, to your knowledge ?

I had to ask; I've seen British Survey Reports that forgot to record the dog's colour, as well as some that have left off [or got wrong (lack of concentration ?) ] other things they should have recorded. I think our UK Panel of Surveyors basically does an excellent job, but mistakes are always possible. If there is uncertainty at the Survey and it does not get sorted out by the time the form is handed in, and then is not picked up on, or corrected, misinformation and ommissions can be consigned to history ...

Also, does anyone good on genetics know how to explain why there cannot be cases of 'masked' colour in circumstances like this ? I feel it ought technically to be possible for a dog to be genetically sable, but not display this phenotypically. Maybe not frequent, but possible. Sables do vary considerably; as Duke says, some have lots of tan on their legs, and bodies so dark as to look saddle or blanket backed; some sables are so dark all over they are mistaken for black.

by duke1965 on 11 July 2020 - 15:07

I bred two black dogs together so should have only black pups, now some have some brown hairs between the toes and on hocks once matured, which means the black parents are not geneticly solid blacks, but are so in pedigree and korschein, would not worry about it to much Max was an absolutely awesome dog, so good to have in the pedigree


by Rik on 11 July 2020 - 15:07

I think they are called "pattern" sables in the U.S.

I certainly agree with the O.P. that neither parent appears sable, but that can be deceiving as duke has shown. the only way to know for sure is what does the survey say.

also, jmo, that seems a very rude answer from admin to someone asking a very legitimate question about the GSD on a GSD board.

no one is born knowledgeable on the GSD. we all have to learn.



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