drive from food to toy/tug

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by Behaviorist on 18 January 2011 - 02:01

Does anyone have a "positive" suggestion about dogs with very high drive, strong working lines, extreme food drive that ignore toys/tugs etc. 15 mos. old. Is it immaturity or any thoughts how to make the transition. I'm at a loss how to develope the interest. I was advised to wait until after nine months to do bite work which I believe is incorrect. Knowledgable response preferred. Thanks....

by Slamdunc on 18 January 2011 - 03:01

You need to teach the dog to play and that the toy or tug is a very high value prize. If the dog has high drives as you say this shouldn't be a problem. I have rescued GSD's with no drive and certainly not working lines and in a month had them crazy for any toy I offered. Obedience is fun time spent with me and the toy is just a way that we have fun playing together. The games always revolve around me and are high energy. It doesn't take long to teach a dog that chasing the toy is a fun game then I transition into obedience with the toy.

Some times you need to take time building the foundation and association with the toy. Some dogs prefer one toy over another, some prefer a tug others the ball on the rope. I would experiment with different toys to see which one works the best.

Jim

by Behaviorist on 18 January 2011 - 03:01

Thanks Jim makes perfect sense; so as a famous broadcaster use to say, "Now for the rest of the story'. I have been injured (knee) and haven't been able to do a lot of things necessary, play for example and environmental for another yet I did marker training. I have recently sought help with my dogs and two different very experienced working people have experienced almost an advoidance for toys yet are overwhelmed by the food drive. I know I'm missing something simple here yet don't see it. Thanks again....

by Slamdunc on 18 January 2011 - 03:01

Well food drive is different than toy or prey drive. Food is great for shaping behaviors and for technique, combine dwith the clicker it is very effective. I tore my right knee up in October, someday I'll get to the doctor. So, I can appreciate the injury. I would spend time with a 2 balls on the rope and get the dog excited about the toy. The nice thing about the ball on the rope is tht you can throw it far and let the dog do the running.

Jim

by EUROSHEPHERDS on 18 January 2011 - 23:01

It is kind of good to have dog with high food drive because you can go back to food anytime when there is a problem .As for building a drive for toys I will suggest use tug or rag on a whip and let the dog chase it as you drag it on the ground as it is a small animal and careful not to raise it up in the air your dog might jump and heart himself . this will be easy on you too, Also toy is far away from you so dog will fell more eager to get it this is true specially for dogs that have done lots of O/B . Once he gets real good at it then use the ball to play and remember misses will build drive , you have to balance this per your dog drive, too many will kill the drive as dog will give up . Rule of thumb 2 misses then let him to get it . Also when you are dragging the ball and he gets it try to yank it of his side of his mouth but not from front k9 's , after few times he will not drop or let it go and will hold it harder .

by Sherman-RanchGSD on 21 January 2011 - 17:01

I am no behaviorist or level trainer as perhaps the other folks posting would be. But there may be times in pups life that yes the prey or play drive appears to diminish some... perhps with teething, growth or spoiling with too many toys by themselves. H

owever with that all said... I feel that usually that type of drive is there and we can manipulate it in the direction we need for training. For dogs that have never shown higher levels..... it is better to select a pup that displays the desired drives at a very good level to begin with. .... Not saying a big problem in YOUR situation or this particular dog I cant see feel or work with. But initial selection is often very important for SOME things.

Much can change with enviorment and the handler afterward sure. Perhaps in your case taking away any house toys, etc and having you and the training become his/her focus and fun, and learning will help redirect the drives were it is needed.

The suggestions above are very good and should help along :)

Best

Debi
www.sherman-ranch.us

by ALPHAPUP on 23 January 2011 - 14:01

I didn't read the posts .. because it doesn't matter ... WHAT matters ?? "Behaviorists" - i like your forum name BTW-- what matters is .. what matters to the dog .. what do you work for .. money ? days off? happiness in the environment?? -- attend to what the dog seeks as needs, Food ? safety ? comapnionship/ acceptance/ove /attention , the BITE.. the only pitfall is that what the dog wants cannot be a distraction but must be maintained as the motivaztor.. i had one dog that would do naything for food. just the word or the sight would make the dog drool [ perfect pavlonainor unconditioned response ] . In three weeks time this dog had Sch 1 trtack down .. just needed to teach him to indicate articles on the track !! taught him to out in bite work .. for his food ... [ be aware of the dog anticipating the out for the food]. he performed about 20 agility exercises taught by food. So what motivates the dog ..not what we thinlk the motivation should be .... AND if you do switch to a toy .. do not switch to the toy you think tyou should use .. ask the dog .. let him choose what he likes .. what toy will motivate the dog ??

by EUROSHEPHERDS on 24 January 2011 - 02:01

I have seen this last Summer with a dog that was trained with marker on Michael Ellis's method and the handler never build drive for toys because she was real happy with the result ,she had more control on the dog and dog would not think for herself as she seems to be depend on the handler . It took her good few weeks to get the dog interested on toys . . I don't know if this will work or not you can buy a tug that has hidden pocket can be stuffed with food .I hav not done it myself but I think it should work specially if he has crazy drive for food .

by KYLE on 24 January 2011 - 19:01

Well does the dog display any prey drive? Was any ball or tug play done with the dog as a pup? If not, then the dog has no idea what to do. Lay off training with food and heavy ob. Free the dog to grip prey objects. The flirt pole is great for deveolping this and still allowing handler contact.

Kyle

by Behaviorist on 25 January 2011 - 23:01

Thanks everyone for your serious imput another interesting part of this is that it has happened to more than one of my dogs all young dogs with crazy food drive and super working lines. I have discussed this with several people of knowledge and a question was asked of me in regards to bark collars; do I use them and the answer is yes so I somewhat believe the collars have stifled the play drive. Has anyone had a similar experience. I have worked professionally with dogs over thirty years so I'm proof that you can't know it all and I appreciate a forum that isn't banter but serious help and consideration. If anyone has anything to add I'd appreciate it. I'm seriously guilty of not being able to develope the play drive due to an injury, still feel like a turd LOL!!! They are my responsibility...

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