American Pitbull Terrier vs American Staffordshire Terrier - Page 1

So I have a question for anyone involved in either of these breeds. As you might know, pedigree database does not carry APBT, but does have AmStaffs. Now APBTs are recognized by a few kennel clubs, but not the FCI or AKC which for conversation's sake are two of the major kennel clubs. BUT it is recognized by the UKC (we won't even mentioned the ConKC!) However the UKC does not recognize the AmStaff, so all FCI or AKC dogs that would be considered AmStaff would be registered under UKC's APBT.

 

Now I know some dedicated APBT people consider the only actual APBT registry to the the American Dog Breeders Association registry, and if they're not that, they are considered something other than APBT. BUT I've also heard some people say that ADBA registers AmStaffs as well? This is not an admin question, more of a personal question to see what your experiences are with it for those that work with either breed. But keep it respectful and clean!

 

These are not my pictures, but just wanted to add these in as they help with differentiating. 

ADBA is pink, UKC is blue (APBT) and AKC is black (AmStaff)

 

Also for those that do feel it is separate breeds entirely, how is the combining of them in some kennel clubs affecting you if at all? 

Thanks!

Not at all "involved" in the breed(s), but can quite appreciate the confusion surrounding the different Registrations !

Way back in the 1970s, this is how I understood the issue: AmStaffs were a definite Breed, in the sense that people kept pedigree records, took them to Dog Shows etc etc etc. Here in England our Kennel Club already recognised the American Staffordshire Terrier. As I expect you know, it has ancestry in the Staffordshire Terrier, but with various American alterations. The US Show scene had, as so often, imported a breed from us, the country of origin, and then set about 'improving' it; so it became taller, straighter legged.

I honestly do not know of any 'American' roots for the breed that did not originate that way, though no doubt some people will claim that with hindsight, and who am I to contradict them ?

Meanwhile the UK carried on with our happy, often bow-fronted, solid little "Nanny Dog". Now BOTH breeds if you looked back far enough had some links to Bull Baiting and Dog Fighting, but historically these 'sports' had been the forum for OTHER breeds (the Bulldog, the extinct Bull and Terrier, some Mastiffs). Nonetheless we in Britain at this time got saddled with some guys into breeding for Dog Fighting - our media loved an 'Ed' somebody, wish I could still remember his surname - who were bringing dogs INTO the UK from America (and maybe elsewhere). They were breeding for 'gameness' (ie for dogs they could fight, basically, although this was often denied in public); the stock they were using was a muscular version of the AmStaff, presumably really descended from the Showdogs but maybe with some crossbreeding as part of developing the harder tendencies.

They claimed some pretty flashy pedigrees going back on fighting dogs, but as they were unregisterable and nobody outside their circles was very interested, and these 'pedigrees' only went back 4 generations max., nobody else really investigated those. At least not publicly. I don't know that there aren't some Pit Bull 'experts' in the industry that developed along with our notorious Dangerous Dogs Act 1978, people like Jan Etches, various Police 'specialists', some Local Authority Dog Wardens, who might be able to claim they researched it and have deeper knowledge.

A lot of people who LIKED and ADMIRED the AmStaff, it's temperament (outside of fighting), and its muscular construction, and some who felt similar affection for the APBT when raised from puppyhood OUTSIDE the dogfighting environment, ran the two breeds back together; cos physically the two ARE basically the same breed. But they could only Register papered AmStaffs of proven linege with the (UK) KC, of course. Quite a lot of 'pet' Pits were therefore registered with the Companion Dog Club, and other pet registry systems, some of which no longer survive today. And after the Act, the expanding number of APBTs in the UK dropped off sharply, and of course could no longer be Registered (except on the Dangerous Dogs Exemption List once neutered, chipped, tattooed, muzzled, etc !) because it became a banned breed. AmStaffs continued to be Registered by The Kennel Club, and occasionally have been imported and Shown over the decades since, but were never numerous.

Meanwhile back in the 2,000-and-some's, our streets are still full of the 'Pits', offspring descended from those dogs which were hidden when the Ban started, or crossbreeds from those dogs (and there are many & varied of those, from purebred Staffordshire crosses, other Terrier crosses, Bulldog crosses, American Bulldog crosses, Dogue de Bordeaux (French Mastiff) crosses, Boxer crosses, Rottweiler crosses, Labrador crosses, even Whippet crosses !). In short, its our new Mongrel; far outnumbering other sorts of crossbreeds* and mutts. Staffies, Staffy-'type', and (possible) Pit Bull crosses are by far the most numerous in the UK's various Rescue kennels at the current date.

All these are 'safe' until - perhaps when they step out of line in one way or another - someone in authority decides they are "of the Type"

and they are arrested and, usually, euthanised.

 

*Apart from the new 'Designer Crossbreeds', obviously !

Hundmutter, I am from the United States so it is very interesting to hear about information from another area, especially the history and sorts like that!

Here for those that are unfamiliar with the history of the breed/s some links I found informative. They will lean more towards APBT as that is the breed I am most interested/involved with.

http://www.realpitbull.com/history.html
http://www.badrap.org/breed-history
http://pitbulls.org/article/brief-history-american-pit-bull-terrier

I/we have 3 APBTs, game-bred, ADBA-registered, ADBA-shown. One is mine, a 10yr old male you're all quite familiar with, and 2 are his, a mother and son, 7yrs and 3yrs. His 2 are also registered UKC, "just for fun." UKC has a lot of fun shows, family-type things, that we thought would be something different to do with them.

Here is ADBA's offical take on AST: https://adbadog.com/adba-apbt-stud-book-corrections/

Yep, I am one of those that unless it is an APBT it's not a Pit Bull. I think they are very different breeds, as breeding for different qualities for so many generations has dramatically impacted them both physically and temperamentally.

So Jenni78, you feel as well that the only actual APBT would be those registered by ADBA?

The ADBA site is so mixed up, thank you for linking to that article! Do you know if that means if all ADBA registered dogs are now different? I personally have not seen a ADBA pedigree, but do know they are now registering Patterdales and American Bullys. Are they registering with a different name/#? like kennel clubs different abbreiations for a different breed? Great Danes could be W and GSD something else. Are Amstaffs being registered under bullies now then with ADBA?

Keep the awesome information coming guys!

Well, generally,yes, however, UKC will register them, and 2 of ours are, so I can't say no other registry could have "real" APBTs. I will say most UKC dogs are big, blue bully-types- a far cry from our 30-50lb, lithe, lean dogs, but UKC does allow them, at least.

I don't know what youre asking about "all ADBA dogs are now different." I can take a pic and post an ADBA ped later if you like.

I think the link I posted answers your questions if you read the whole thing. AmStaffs can be registered ADBA, but only as ASTs, not as APBTs.

I personally recognize as ADBA having the true APBTs as a whole, but yes I have seen APBTs in both UKC and AKC and others listed as APBTs or ASTs. I'm glad to see they are expanding and instead of lumping them all in are separating them into new breeds they are going to recognize! AKC has said they won't ever recognize 'pit bulls' so it is nice to see that UKC had. So thanks for that awesome news, I hadn't heard of that yet!

So in AKC lets say a breed is registered as AA####### and in ADBA it is just a number that I know of, so I'm wondering if they are going to go to different lettering like other kennel clubs to differentiate them even more? Like APBT #### and PT#####, etc etc.