Help with puppy selection - Page 1

I had a request from a client today for a puppy suitable to guard his flocks. He didn't say what kind of flocks ,but I'm guessing sheep or goats considering where he lives and where he is from. I was not able to spend much time talking today with him and he wants me to select the proper pup for his purposes from my litter. I have never been asked this particular queston before and I don't really know what to look for as the babies grow. I guess I am thinking lower prey drive but,you need a dog that will go after the foxes and coyotes..whatever.Those predators are the usual problems near here except also bears. The pups are 2 weeks and soon will be showing personalities and drives. I did tell him the dog needs to bond with the flock not the human and he already knew that . Can anyone help me with what I need to look for in these pups to find the correct dog for him? Thank you.

GSDlv - I refer you to rfead my commentary about the word drives on yesterdays forum .-- now for those that read your request : this is but one reason I state the word as it applies to canines is now defunct: it lacks qualitative and quantitative input and it tells youi nothing about what a dog is thinking /feeling / and the true motives[needs& desries ] that ellicit behavior. [ for those that are confused I will explain ... and you arre welcome to e-mail me why in training[ althought the book Der Schutzhund is a fantastic book but .. really now i read that bok 10 times 15 years ago and times change]. Ok some input from me : I look for a dog pup with hidh stress level .. another words does not drawback nor act withou total disredard for unfamiliar environmental stimuli .I look for a dog with a propensity of independence but then again a pup that will gravitate to me as to not blow me off that i cannot develop working synergy with it for the dog must be able to be away from and still want to look for my directions/instructions .I look for a dog with innater moderate , that is to say not overly high in aggression brecause of what you eluded to .. the dog must have the ptential to develop the courage and confidence to ward off threats . that to .. i look for a dog the projects a degree of confidence and the ability to be social and to form strong pack relations. sometimes iI look to see if the pup exhibits innate herding tendencies such as nipping at feet to coral or a dog pup that goes but comes back to goes and comes back as if it is herding. I look to saee if the dog has at least a moderate degree of hardness and one that I do not think will run if the sheep try to kick it or a pup that won't back off if another animal tries to rank it with it's eyes. so you can talk about this drive and that drive .. but that discussion falls short . same with protection work .. the word drive falls short .. in order to train we must be able to see the "ESSENCE " of what that dog is and not try to make it what it is not ! andmoreover to help it become and succeed as to what it is .

I copied the below from an article on livestock protection dogs. Hope it helps. Copied:::::::: Thus far, a good livestock protection dog has been defined as one that is calm, loves order, is healthy, protective and sensitive to the moods of the livestock, and possesses superior senses of sight, smell and hearing. Are there any other desirable traits? Most people do not want an overprotective dog that will bite any stranger entering the field─a sociability factor must be considered. A dog that does not eat too much food is also an economic benefit. This is a rather subjective consideration, but fits in well with the need for a calm animal. Calm animals often have lower rates of metabolism─they eat less and expend less energy. The good livestock protection dog will look forward to interactions with his master, but will not be too fawning or dependent on the master for love and affection. In other words, a good protection dog will be self-confident and capable of making independent decisions. Many dog breeds today seem to exist only to please their masters. These breeds are not very likely to be good livestock protection dogs.

I have never really thought about this. I would like to have more information about the property, and how much interaction the dog has with the owners. Are they looking for purely a flock guardian? How much interaction with outside people will they have, etc. For the property, flock perspective only. I think you are right on with the lower prey drive. That is a must, can't have wanting to chase and eat the sheep. I would look for the independent,confident, stable pup that carries suspision and a touch of aggression.. The pup that barks at noises and when people enter the room. One that is overall very vocal.

I think you have to be careful on the barking aspect . Again without the intention of being repetative .. we must be able to grasp the essence and being of the pup/dog itself . Barking ... may have different avenues .. a pup may bark ... because it is insecure , and the bark may well indeed be in dog language , a call for back-up and help . I think one neds a confident dog and this may not be the display one is looknig for. A bark could also be a warning or a forerunner of intent.. And don't over look the cadence and the pitch of the bark. I had a friend that ytied to temperamnet test a pup for me . I told him it was a dominant and agressive/assertive pup ! so he took the pup and like the foolish books say to do .. he put him in his arms upside down . the dog struggled and squirmed relentlessly . he puts the dog down . the pup walks three steps away from him./ then immediately turns around and jumps into his lap and nips him. before the pup turned around he said " yup dominant pup" . I said "yes" but not for the reason you think ! you think he was dominant and aggressive becuase he struggled and protested as you hrld him . like those books described . I said . "NO" that's not why... he is dominant and aggressive because when you put him down , on his own accord this 12 week old pup had the audacity to charge back into you and nip you ! that is not submission but it is most certainly an aggressive act ! Not everything is as it seems to be .. even the barking sometimes. SO .. you must really "in see" as to what the dog is thinking and feeling and ask why , to understand the pup, it's motivation and behavior! And i do not think you want an overly aggressive pup for flocks . the higher the aggression ..the harder to control .

Stupid question, why would a person looking for a dog to guard a flock not look specifically for a guarding breed like a pyrenees?

Alphapup please read my reply to you on the other drive thread. I don't understand how you can get down on someone for using the word DRIVE. Sure, some might be a bit vague, but we need these words to describe the dog. You are doing the same thing talking about the dogs character. From what you said here is you like an independent,hard dog with a high tolerance to stress. BUT, you have told me nothing about his DRIVES. Yes, I said drives! Food, hunt, prey, defense, ball, etc, etc. What kind of DRIVE does the dog have? Sure, you told me about his temp., But i want to know about the dogs DRIVES. Yes, he is a hard dog, but what motivates him. From your description of the dog you like, I get a picture of a blood hound sitting on your porch. He is too lazy to move, because he has no DRIVE!

Again, why a GSD and not a pyr or another livestock guarding breed? Am I the only person thinking that the GSD might not be the right breed for this buyer? Do GSD breeders routinely sell this breed as guard dogs for flocks? I'm pretty sure one of the better known GSD/HGH trainers in the US keeps a pyr to guard his flock and uses the GSD's to tend them.

a GSD , Blitzen, because that is what gsdlvr2 sells, thats what he wants, and because GSDs can do anything! That's If they have the DRIVE.LOL(alphapup)

Well, OK, Don. I just have a gut feeling this is not the right breed for this buyer, but I will let that up to the experts LOL. I wouldn't sell a GSD to race in the Iditarod either although they sure can run damned fast when chasing after a rabbit LOL.