Question about color genetics..what are these pups? - Page 1

If I bred a solid black bitch to a Bi-Color stud who has one sable and one blanketed black and tan parent but he is black recessive (he has numerous black pups)....... can the cross produce something other than a black or bi-color? I have a couple pups who I thought were bi-color based on legs and under tail but are now developing tan on their cheeks. So, now I am curious....Thanks in advance!

 

 

Genetically speaking, I believe Bi-Color is still a Blk and Tan pattern. So, my guess is, no. You will only get Black (as a solid pattern and color) or Blk & Tan pattern variations that include the exteme saddle, face and leg coverage, called Bi-Color. This is because the Sable gene (dominant for color) was heterozygous and not passed onto your stud.

I could be wrong, but that is my understanding of the science and the descriptives used for the appearance.

Thanks, Beetree. But, what is throwing me for a loop is that this stud is clearly phenotypically bi-color. I mean no tan on face, checks, chin, etc that I could see. Classic bi-color markings. Only tan on legs and under tail. He MUST be black recessive to consistently throw blacks. Thus, wouldn't he be dominant bi-color and black recessive? If so, he couldn't throw any black and tans could it? How would he sire black and tan if it is not his dominant gene or recessive as he is recessive for black?

I thought bi-colors were dogs typical his coloration with no tan on face, chest, etc?

His blanket backed black and tan mom had tan on face and not just legs.

But, if he is not black and tan and is black recessive than where would the black and tan be coming from?

I read that bi-color and black and tan were two distinct genetic patterns so I am shocked that the pups are getting tan on faces!!

Are you SURE that the bi-color stud is a REAL bi-color, complete with tar-heel & toe-pencilling?

If yes, then it's really VERY interesting.....

There are modifiers involved, such as the one for the face mask, and probably extent of bleedthrough of the tan on the legs and other markers, that are helping to create the idea that bi-color is a separate pattern gene from Blk&Tan. But, I think I am correct that when a genetist is looking at the genes of a Bi-Color and a Blk & Tan, he sees the same thing on the gene location for the pattern.

So, I would say he is dominant Blk & Tan with the modifiers needed to look Bi-Color and also carries the recessive Blk, which is somewhat unique being a solid pattern because it is expressed with a single (black) color. 

Of course, I am not an science expert on genetics, so I will be interested in learning where I have gone wrong in my thinking, if I am wrong!

 

Well, that's him in the picture and he has tar heels and toe penciling.

Is it possible for a bi-color to be born with a lot of tan on cheeks, chest, and ears and end up black there with just tan legs and under tail?

The bitch has 8 titles and 9 health clearances and the stud has 7 titles and 6 health clearances so color is the least of my concerns. A good german shepherd is any color!

But, I do want to inform my puppy buyers correctly lest they later get all upset that their puppy does not grow up to look like they thought! For some reason, pet/companion homes are really focused on color. *sigh*

Beetree- very interesting! I, honestly, never cared about all the multiple color genetic threads on here over the years. Like I said, I don't care what color a GSD is if she is a great example of a GSD in health, temperament, working ability and type.

But, unfortunately and Ironically, in the past, I would gasp.."not another identify my bi-color pup thread" but now here I am doing the same thing. Boy, how times change!!! Now, I am "suddenly" curious!! hahaha But, I can, at least, admit it!!! :-)
 

I just want to inform my puppy buyers properly.

I don't know why beetree is being so confusing...

If the stud is phenotypically a TRUE bi-color (no matter what his parents are or his other recessive is) and the dam is a self-black, no way you can get anything other than self-blacks & bi-colors. The still to be defined tan modifier (black shrinker or tan spreader or both) alleles are NOT present. Of course you can get some tan on the cheeks, but the pup is STILL bi-color.

Unless we are experiencing something rare like a Panda Shepherd....

LOL, there usually was always a big debate on this, so, that is why I put my disclaimer, "I think." Whatever became of the poster who went by the name of "pod"? That person was a real scientific expert! And then, on the otherhand, Darryl the chartmaker always considered Bi-color a separate gene. BUT, I am fairly sure the science sees them the same. Of course we are learning new stuff about color genetics all the time, so, if someone knows the new science, I am interested in learning that, too!
Beautiful pups, no matter what. I can't imagine how the buyers could complain! :)

 

@Swarnendu.  I will repeat, that I am fairly certain the new color genetics aren't so cut and dry as you have described. The next problem becomes: Is it a true Bi-Color if it has tan on its cheeks? The purists will say NO, it is not. 


 

@beetree, if some chartmaker still thinks bi-color is a separate "gene", do I have to wait for his opinion also ?

What purist !! As there are variations in Saddles & Blankets, there are also variations in bi-color.

But, I'll repeat, is the sire (in picture) a TRUE bi-color?.