Bitework Question: How should trainer progress. - Page 1

Today our trainer began testing my dog for suitability for bite work training. I noticed that many of the other young dogs( on leash/ harness with handler ) would bark beforehand and when they took the sleeve their bite was calm and silent; in fact the decoy was able to raise them off the front and calmly stroke their heads. My dog was tied alone along a fence ( and about 6 feet away from me ). She starts off with all intense seriousness and barking ( no backing into the fence; tail up but no hackling ) , and upon biting the sleeve she would fight to rip it from the decoy's arm, but as she got it from him she would spit it and go for the decoy himself. ( Her bite is definitely not calm and " lifting off the front " type ).
Additional info: my dog does have some prey drive ( she will chase and return a ball for as many times as you can throw it .....but this does not seem to transfer to a moving sleeve )
My questions are :

1.How should bite work be developed with this dog?

2. Why are the two styles of biting so different, and is anyone of the better or more ideal?

I would like to compare opinions with what the trainer has to say when I meet him next Thursday.


Thanks in advance.

One can write a book to answer your question.

*What is your goal (sport title or PPD)? What is your trainers experience and does he have experience in the venue you wish to pursue (very important).

The trainer had the dog on a sleeve in her first session with no previous training, correct?

By your description sounds like he's starting her in defense. If he continues this way, while it is a valid training method and with repitition can make for a funcrional protection dog... it is generally looked upon as old school.

While that method will likely result in a dog biting for real it is NOT a method that generally fosters fast progress towards confidence and forward, pro-active aggression with good grips and high thresholds.

A dog in protection sports in particular is graded for their grip. They want to see a full hard calm grip, which stays in one place and does not let go. In this and many other behaviors in protection they translate this to mean the dog is confident and strong in what he is doing. He must stay on the grip And not come off or cower to stick hits, yelling, gunfire and other distractions.

It is my experience that generally speaking a dog started in defense will have one or more major issues with the above requirements...while if the same dog was started in prey would be much stronger.

A more widely accepted foundation method is starting a dog in prey tossing back and forth a rag/tug/pillow and progressing to a sleeve then to a suit and hidden equipment/ muzzle work. This gives a low stress sparring session for the dog to learn how to use his mouth and bite with confidence through prey drive where the dog is not under duress and in fear for his safety. The dog generally will be able to handle much more pressure with a more confident bite. After the dog is confident with using his mouth it is more equipped for handling the pressure of defense at this point. Some people will look down on prey drive but it is important to know prey drive is not equivalent to play drive in a mature dog...prey drive is the drive a canine hunts and kills in, it is a serious drive...developed right a balanced dog will be a force to be reconed with if he functions mostly in this drive.

Now with that said if the trainer does not know what he's doing, or the dog is not genetically cut out for "real" work you may have issues with equipment fixation, but if you have a good balanced dog and good trainer will not be a problem and the dog will bite with or without equipment.

JMO
 

My pup wouldn't go after dead prey, so I bought a cheap horse whip and a tug, tied the tug to the whip and let him chase it. Eventually, he'd catch it and run around with it, but he'd let it go, so I'd snatch it from him.

After it became a high value item for him, he got more and more reluctant to let it go. Plus, I began making him work more for it as it became higher value. Now, he won't let that sucker go at all.

At his first training session, the decoy started with a rag, moved on to the tug. He commended Bosco for his willingness to grip full and called him a "little badass" because he wouldn't let the tug go.

You work your dog at home, right? Not just during the once a week sessions? By that, I mean, constructive play sessions that will benefit your pup/help the pup to advance during those training sessions.

But I'm still only a novice, so I might be completely wrong, too. I'm still learning.

Mith, we already know your dog is very high in defense, to the point where she's a danger when you have her out in public. I would NOT be letting the decoy bring this out anymore. And from your description, that's EXACTLY what is happening. She is focusing on the man, not the sleeve.

Reliya has given you a very good description of how to build your dog's prey drive. I would work on that instead. I would also make sure the dog has a good foundation in obedience, so you have control of her at ALL times, and can call her off if she goes for the decoy instead of the sleeve.

Of course, if your goal is to have a PP dog, not a sport dog, well, that's a different story. Still the control needs to be there, or you could be facing a big lawsuit, and the loss of your dog, if she's labelled as dangerous.

Without seeing the dog, and based on the description, the trainer’s only chance to bring out any prey drive is to do it through defense. You almost have to confuse the dog into prey while it’s in defense. It’s a long and drawn out process that does allow the dog to be in defense, and then with a swing of the sleeve or a throw of a prey item, the dog reacts to that and gets rewarded for it. Although I don’t know how good mithuna’s descriptions of his dog have been, with what I’ve read I doubt the dog would really go after a prey item. It’s always worth a shot, but she’s an older dog and a puppy rag won’t really teach her much even if she does go after it.

The ability to hold and carry would be good to add and allow the dog to learn to calm on the sleeve. Just being back tied will keep the dog in defense and not really help the situation. Since this is the beginning of bitework, you can’t put too much control on the dog, if you do, you’ll probably squash all want to actually bite.

This type of foundation will be tough in sport as you’ll have a huge issue once you take off the harness and back line and also when you introduce your dog to new helpers. A dog working in defense, is generally comfortable working on the helper who taught it “confidence in defense” and the moment they see a new helper that presents in a different way or does anything else that isn’t what the dog is used to, they regress. Will it be an amazing sport dog? Unlikely. But there’s no reason the dog can’t do bitework.

No matter the dog/puppy you have to START with what they bring to the table...Puppies need to mature so they can handle the pressure that will be put on them with different types of training...
Puppies CAN'T handle defense type training from the beginning they need to mature physically and mentally and will be affected by putting too much pressure on them too soon...
Although I like to start all puppies with Prey type work...sometimes they just don't react to this so you must get them started with a little defense but only to get them started then lead them into prey/chasing a rag...
When teaching puppies/dogs you only add a little more pressure each time...You pressure them and then give them time to recover...If you put too much pressure without the time to recover you will affect them forever...
If your puppy goes after the "Helper" then use this to your advantage and let your puppy chase the "Helper" and get a bite on a Rag/Sleeve...Then run them letting them carry the reward...
From what you've said with this puppy...I wouldn't have them on a "post" but would have them on a lease and harness...(How old is this puppy?)

~Bob~

I agree with BW and Q on how to proceed with your particular dog if not responding to prey.

I wasnt aware this was a puppy!? If so you should spend this time socializing and taking this dog to new environments rather than bitework....a dog who has limitations like this should be mature before proceeding in a stressful drive.

 

and the dog/pup should not be on a sleeve yet...the work needs to be less personal to build confidence.

Dog is like 2 years old. Not sure why anything about a puppy was brought up.

OP even mentions a sleeve being used...what kind of puppy would take a sleeve?

Ok i thought he was pulling info from another thread...I have had pups under a year some as young as 5 mos on a sleeve who were started in prey.

 

Yeah...they don't really need teeth to bite anyways. Congrats on the pups! Any chance anyone has ever heard of them?