Does schutzhund title qualify dog as working breed - Page 1

Hi All: I am a GSD fan and would be getting a GSD pup this summer. I have browsed through this forum and read lots of articles posted here which has helped me to understand the breed. What still confuses me is the differentiation between the show and working breeds. Most of the show qualitydogs have red/black pigment, but I seldom see this in the working breed. Why? Also if you look at all the reputed breeders, even their show quality GSD's have schutzhund titles. SO if they have these titles why can't they be classified both as show as well as working breed. Bottom line is does a schutzhund title make a dog working breed. Since I am looking for a red/black pigment GSD with both show/working qualities, your input to educate me will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Mastan, This whole show vs. working line can be confusing to somebody new to the breed. The basic difference is what the dog is meant to excell at. Showlines are meant to excel in the ring and workinglines are meant to excel in the field or street. Look at competition results; how many showlines do well BSP or WUSV? How many working lines are VA? Also, you must realize that under SV (German Shepherd Dog club of Germany) rules all dogs must have a SchH (or HGH) title to be bred. And just because a dog is titled does not mean it is a good "working dog". Good training can cover a lot. I am a big proponent of breeding only titled dogs, but you must realize that just because two dogs have the same title and maybe the same scores, it does not always mean that the two dogs are similar in working ability. Schutzhund is simply a forum that allows one to judge dogs on equal footing. The black/red is pretty much confined to the showlines, though you can find many blk/tan working dogs.

You can search old posts on this messageboard and find tons of opinions on this matter. Basic difference is showlines pay alot of attention to color/coat/conformation/movement while also trying to keep good nerves/temperment/drives/hardness but to a lesser degree. True working lines breed for the exact opposite, good nerves/temperment/drives/hardness and to a lesser degree color/coat/conformation/movement. You have extremes on both lines and you have breeders in the middle. The overall result is the show lines overall are excellent dogs but you need to watch out for problems on the traits mention above that they breed for to a lesser degree. Same for working lines. Neither line is perfect but you need to be sure what you want a GSD for before buying one.

Good Luck in your search. In short, both Porsche and Rolls Royce are considered cars. Do you want perfomance or show? Since you are new to this, I would vistit your local schutzhund club and check out what is going on before spending your money. Kyle

There are four or five sub-species under the lump-sum name "German Shepherd". Working lines tend to be more sable in color, and come from lines derived from both sport dogs bred in West Germany, to the communist bloc dogs from Czech & East Germany which were bred not for sport but for strict military use. The black and red "show-line" dogs were developed in West Germany, and some people have told me it's to represent "the German flag", but I don't know if that's true, I don't care. As for the working title, any & all kennels in Germany or anywhere in the world adhere to strict SV standards to show if their dogs are worthy of being bred and passing their traits on. The dogs are required to run a 12 mile trot to show their fitness & endurance (an AD), have basic obedience (a BH)and besides being shown in class conformation & having hips x-rayed, also have to have a minimum SchH1 title. This does not mean that the dog can go to work for the local police department. Most "show-line" dogs lack the hardness, or ability to deal with extreme stress from the decoy, that most working dogs are bred to have. Still, there are good show-lines as there are crappy working-lines. It's all a matter of taste, really. August

Lol - Kyle! I like your reply! Totally short, sweet, and to the point!

Also as a follow up their are different type and levels of working dogs which need different abilities and traits of the dog. It is one thing to want a pet in the home to help be a watchdog and/or even a protection dog while if you are wanting a cross-trained police K-9 you will need a higher drive harder dog. It is hard to explain the difference but Kyle's advise is good to check out a Schutzhund club before buying. Most people get the "fever" and buy the first pup they see and can make a big mistake. Plus the more you observe and view the dogs in the club will make you much wiser and also help you find people you can trust.

PS..picking a pup with the "best" or pretty color and marking can be a huge mistake. As long as the pigment is good color is the least of my worries when selecting a working pup. Of course if wanting to show the pigment is much more important.

To the Title question = NO GSD's are Herding "breed". If you meant "lines", the answer is still NO. Titles don't mean working, just as KKL1 does not mean Show. ...and as Zahnburg explains all dogs in Germany must have Titles and KKL in order to be bred and registered. So Most showlines do have SchH titles. and vice versa most working lines do have KKL rating. They are however tools we use to "classify" certain characteristics as explained very well again by Zahnburg, near the bottom of the post. Good Luck and yes spend some time on the field see how much dedication and "TIME" it takes before you make your decisions, You may just change your mind, or you may decide to go very extreme and seek "hard" working line dogs. Good Luck and mostly Have Fun !!

Why do people consider the GSD a good working dog? Police/Military/Sport/Protection/Herding/Agility/SAR/ etc.. Because the GSd is oftern said to not be the BEST in anything but second best in everything. In other words it has abilities to perform well at many tasks. On the flip side Labs are used alot for scent detection even they they are a sporting or hunting dog. But they can't do all the other jobs that a GSD can do.