Difference between 3 -2 and 2 - 3 Inbreeding coefficient - Page 1

What is the difference between 3 -2 (father - mother) and 2 - 3 Inbreeding coefficient under linebreeding - five generations on the pedigree database (when you type in a possible mating between two dogs)? I have seen 2 - 3 before but not 3-2. I am just curious as to what this means? I have tried to research Wright's (06.25%) and Hardiman's (09.26%) inbreeding coefficients which coincide with the 3 - 2 above. Thank you for any help or advice any of you can provide on this. I am trying hard to understand this.

They are numbers. They simply tell you the generation and the side of pedigree ( SIRE -DAM) So in essence no difference but that is not the important question.
The questions you should be asking is what that linebreeding brings. Is the dog /bitch worthy of being linebred on - if so why and what traits are you trying to select for that he/she carried? Did they pass those traits on to the intervening dogs in the pedigree so they are there to hopefully be captured? ( this is essential!) Has similar linebreeding been done - what were the results?

A 2-3 breeding CAN be (not always is) a strong breeding to set type but keep in mind done as commonly is as for ex as an uncle -niece breeding you are restricting diverrsity in you lines for the purpose of setting a trait or traits or type BUT bad can be set as well as good so you HAVE to know what's behind there.

Thank you for taking the time to response to my post Tig! I now understand what the 3 -2 and 2- 3 mean. If and when I breed my male, I don't want to make any mistakes that can be prevented by educating myself. I want to better the German Shepherd breed, not hurt it. 

I really appreciate your advice and explaining to me the questions I need to be aware of when considering whether or not to line breed. 

It is a complicated with close inbreeding and needs to be done as part of a plan. An example of a 2-3 below

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=746657-hard-kandee-angus

The inbreeding on the 2-3 is Orry but there are other dogs inbred into the dog from both parents.  The 2-3 on Orry is in the paternal side of the pedigree the sire and the maternal side for the dam which makes a difference.  I like it better when the closely inbred dog ( in this case Orry ) is not in both paternal lines or maternal lines. 

I prefer a 3-2 over a 2-3 actually.  The mother gives an x,x so her being more homogenous is better than in the sire who gives an x,y.  Also good to look at the inbreeding in the parents.  I don't like to breed to already inbred dogs in a 2-3 or 3-2 mating and I would not use a 2-3 or 3-2 as a  breeding partner for a similarly inbred dog.  Best bet is open for 5 generations with both parents and the 2-3 or 3-2 and then take these dogs back to an open breeding.  If you keep inbreeding on inbreds without reshuffling the genetic deck of cards bad things will happen.  Best bet is 5-5 or further out bred with a 5-5 mated to give a 2-3 or 3-2 and then back to the 5-5 or further out in the next breeding with these dogs.  All GSD are inbred or they wouldn't be GSD and reshuffling the deck between close inbreedings is a good idea.

 

Whoa bb while there is 2-3 linebreeding that is not at all a simple linebreeding and not at all easy for a newer student of the breed to se what's going on.

First of all while the initial 2-3 is on a Pike grandson there is an additional line to Pike suggesting the linebreeding desired is really Pike not the grandson or son. Secondly there is additional linebreeding all over the place the most significant being on Grim at least 4,5-5,5

Secondly each parent came to the table with 3-4 linebreeding which is also a pretty strong linebreeding

Did you seriously offer this puppy as a sweet loving family companion?

I'm curious what were you breeding for and why you chose the dogs to be linebred on. Looks like classic sport breeding to me yet only one pup out of either parent has a schutzhund title and that is only a one.

Er, Bubs, the XX & XY chromosomes just pass on gender; they don't
contribute any other features, good or bad, surely ?

Hm, I don't think you are correct here; '... they don't contribute any other features...'

I think my example above was about as simple as it gets with 2-3 or 3-2 .. close inbreeding is never simple. I don't have couch potato GSD and never have but many are great companion dogs if the owners know what they want ( a GSD ) and are willing to give the dogs what they need to succeed and thrive. There are many traits in dogs, humans, and other mammals that are "sex linked" or are block inherited more strongly with one sex or the other. Many behaviors and health problems are more strongly inherited and passed along with one sex or the other. It is no mystery to me that superior female GSD are more predictable producers of superior offspring than GSD males including the winners of some title or competition. Therefore if I am going to line breed or inbreed for some bloodline characteristic in a 2-3 or 3-2 I prefer that the female support that quality first and foremost in the form of a 3-2 if at all possible. It is well supported that females contribute 60% or more to the puppies development through genetic, epigenetic, and environmental contributions. In addition there are many genes in an animals genetic bank account that are switched off and sex plays a role in the gene switching apparatus. In my experience many of these close line breeding such as 2-3 do not produce pups that are identical at all .. in fact the offspring from a closely inbred mating can be quite variable in size, physical attributes, and personality. Close line breeding is never simple nor are the results.  Pups produced from close inbreedings can be quite variable even with the same parents ... from pup to litter mate and from litter to litter. If the dam and sire are both great dogs then I find 2-3 or 3-2 to be just fine with some restrictions due to inbreeding health concerns but I never expect that the dog on which I am inbreeding will miraculously reappear .. the pups will be most like mom and dad with some of one grandpa or grandma a bit more likely to be present.  The pup in my 2-3 example turned out exactly like his mother EVA while his brother turned out more like his dad Fargo.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=746657-hard-kandee-angus

Bubba, as soon as we are talking about an ancestor ( be it 2 or 3 in the ped ) there is no more influence of epigenetic or environmental contributions, it´s maths pure ( statistically 2 = 25 %, 3 = 12,5 % ). Only the dam of a litter is able to contribute more ( or less ) to the genetics throughout temperament, nutrition, and raising ( not about simple rules of genetics though, it´s about activating or intensifying certain traits, NOT creating them ).

Off topic right now, but I clicked on your link, was interested in your dogs, and wondered about their profiles. A / B / C litter = only ONE dog x-rayed / only the same dog titled ? You are online almost every day, I guess it´s time to update your own dogs...and this is not said in a mean manner, but trying to be helpful.

Actually epigenetic influences go back generations and the calculation of any gene inheritance has never fit mathematical curves perfectly. Some traits can't be calculated at all such as incomplete dominance or multiple allele inheritance or genetic expression based on block, mosaic or switched inheritance. Genetic expression is a mess and not simple at all. Even simple traits well known such as the BRCA gene mutations associated with breast cancer in humans do not fit inheritance or expression as predicted by mathematical models ( 70% of people with BRCA ( females ) may get cancer in their lifetime while 30% may have the gene and never have breast cancer. Few men with or without the BRCA gene mutation get breast cancer regardless. Most breast cancers in humans are spontaneous and their cause and regulation are poorly understood. I had a litter of puppies once between two GSD with rear dew claws and not a single puppy in the large litter had dew claws. At present I have but six dogs and I do not maintain the records of my past or departed dogs as it is not my business or right. The owners have the right and responsibility to maintain and post their dog's genetics and breedings when and where they please as do I.