Question regarding position of head during heeling for BH, IPO1, etc. - Page 1

When I train a dog in basic obedience or teach someone how to train their dog, on leash and off leash, I train and teach first and foremost for practical life. Our dogs join me for walks around town, trails, etc.. When I teach a dog to heel, I do not teach them to turn their head up and look at me while walking like I see in just about all of the IPO tests. Does anyone know if points are taken off if the dog is just heeling in a natural type of walking position without constantly looking up at the handler?

Won't get full points.
Why not do both types of heeling?

In sport, the judge is looking to see if the dog is engaged with the handler so having the dog focus on the handler during heeling is the easiest, most efficient way of showing this. But sport people generally do not heal their dogs around the neighborhood like this LOL... Most of us teach our dogs to 'Focus Heel' on the field during practice and trial but allow our dogs to walk loose leach everywhere else :)

I teach my dogs to do certain exercises in certain ways for Schutzhund...and when not do those exercises then they are more free to do what is natural...
So you can do both without interfering with anything...

~Bob~

For the BH which is pass fail it likely won't matter about focused heeling .. the rules say nothing about the dog staring at your face with the head awkwardly straight up. Read the rules which say "happy dog" and stays in position correctly by the handler's leg. The head straight up and staring at the handler's face is just a style that is in fashion in the last 15-20 years .. judges vary and there is no logic or consistency for scores. Personally I think that focused heeling ( head straight up and staring at the handler's face ) is not useful in the real world and is just a show dog style. IPO is said to be a way of "proofing" the dog but in fact a lot of it is a way of "proofing" the trainer.

That will be another trouble with Becky... hntrjmpr434 how do we work both types? He work the heel like sagey, the command is "junto" (portuguese for heel) she knows it and does it perfectly, but she is not used to look up...

Practical stuff like walking around the neighborhood, getting from point A to point B, asking the dog to remain alert...that is different than competition for points in IPO. Even with the head up, there are different variations (head looking up into the armpit, head straight up, head more tilted like looking towards the handlers face, head up but alternating where the focus is....). You can train and use both just like you can train a sit command is different than a down command. I know the IPO style of heeling is not very practical but so what. It's a competition for points and titles. You can certainly pass a BH without that style of heeling as long as the dog is still with you and doing the exercises correctly. I train and compete in a lot of different dog sports, often with different styles required for the same type of command, or the same equipment being used in different ways/different rules. It can be done, it's a matter of training and clear communication to the dog. I also enjoy walking my dogs around the neighborhood and in public. Just got back from a 1.6 mile walk with my young dog (who has titles in multiple sports) on my lunch break and I don't use any commands at all, he's got a 6' leash he can use as he wishes as long as he's not dragging me or circling around. As far as IPO, I do not think that points are necessarily taken off for a dog not maintaining strict, heads-up eye contact during heeling, however I find that often dogs who are not doing this are also showing other faults like incorrect position (lagging, forging, too wide from the handler....) and/or are not showing the power, drive, or intensity the judge is looking for in the obedience exercises. I don't specifically train my IPO dogs to stare at my face. I know a lot of people lure this with balls/toys in their armpits, under the chin, etc which is fine. I don't train that way but have not found it hard to get nice eye contact and strong heeling. The dogs seem to offer this naturally, as they need to be keyed in to keep their position correct throughout the motion or stopping.

Interesting. I find when a dog is heeling with me, or when a dog is heeling with someone else, there is no mistaking whether a dog is truly working with his handler or not. They are either in sync or not in sync. I liken the feeling of a dog really being in perfect heel to that of hitting the sweet spot of the racket in tennis. You don't see it when you hit it, but you undoubtedly feel it. Same as when a dog is heeling. There is a cadence and a synchronicity that cannot be denied (and is quite beautiful). I don't quite understand why a dog needs to be looking up in what I find to be an artificial looking position of his/her head to convince a judge that the dog is truly in sync with the handler.
That being said, it sounds like we would maybe still get enough points to pass and maybe not get enough in IPO1 if not using the looking up at handler type of heeling, and that would depend on the judge.

I don´t like this heeling type...
As long as the dog heels well, engaged and without faults, you won´t loose points in a club trial ( IPO 1 - 3 ). Even in case you get a "know it all" judge you may loose maybe 2 or 3 points - although once again - there is no reason for it - there is no rule about "giraffe posture".
Regionals and Nationals are different, at that point it´s about perfection.
Only for the record: The handlers "invented" this kind of heeling, not the judges - but once established, they like to see it...
When I started SchH the dogs heeled "normal", then the handlers started to teach the dogs to turn the head to the handler, but still on "normal" level - now they are looking like giraffes...

I concur with Susie, don't like that kind of heeling for my shepherds either. Because of the different
angulation compared to a Malinois it looks like the shepherd walks like a frog.
The obedience judge in 2014 Bundessieger already mentioned this trend in his critics.

Susie may translate this statement better than Google can:
Bei meinen Bewertungen habe ich besonderes Augenmerk auf eine korrekte
Vorführweise nach den Vorgaben der Prüfungsordnung, sowie auf eine
natürliche Gangart von Hundeführern/in und Hunden gelegt. Rueckwertig
ausgerichtetes Gehen, das heißt nicht mit dem Schulterblatt auf Kniehöhe
was für mich ebenso ein Bewertungskriterium wie der sogenannte
Froschgang, bei dem der Hund fast auf dem Sprunggelenk läuft.

So, hopefully one does not get docked for not heeling with the dogs head hyper-extended, not even at the national level.

RKS