Schutzhund,,, THE BE ALL! - Page 1

so many topics on this list end up with people talking about REAL dogs, or how schutzhund is NOT the only thing that makes a GSD breedable, so why is it after 100 years the founders of the breed, Max and the SV, still use a schutzhund title, show rating, and kor rating as the basis for breeding? either you have them, or your dog is not going to have pink papered puppies? is schutzhund not a true test of what the founder of the breed thought the dog should be? did he not come up with the test? if not then why hasnt the SV changed the rules? I truely feel that most people outside of Germany take for granted the "rules" set down by the SV. we lazy americans want to buy titled dogs and breed them, or worse yet get dogs from good stock, and say "oh well, schutzhund is not the only thing that makes my dog a working dog" Respect the dog and its ancestry. if it wasnt for Max and his dream of the ideal dog, we wouldnt be on this messageboard having these conversations. just the thoughts of a rambling madman who wishes he lived in Germany. john

<<>>. They have, for the worse. If SchH is still a test as Max had intended. But over the many years it has been so watered down and corrupted that I've seen dogs with SchH3 titles run for the hills at the first sight of trouble. Not all but more of them than not. There are many good Judges out there both here and abroad that will rate the dog for what it truly is. But trust me SchH a test for Breed Suitability is not what it once was. More SchH titled dogs of 25yrs ago were suitable for real life situations than what we have now. Uwe

Jlechter18-good question. Uwe-good response. Over many years the Schutzhund exams were developed to test the drive, trainability, and stability of the dog. The tests have been modified slightly in recent years, but for the most part are still true to their purpose. Shamefully, I must agree that the dogs of twenty-five (25) years ago and beyond were dogs whose mettle was really tested compared to what happens nowadays in not-so-isolated cases. I think that this "relaxing" of the criteria for many of these dogs is what has caused a line to emerge called the "working-line." This division did not exist so much in the years past, but is very apparent today. One (1) dog, one (1) conformation standard, one (1) performance standard is what it will take to restore the breed to what is once was in years not so long ago. Just my thoughts, Bob-O

jlechter 18, " So why is it that after 100 years the founders of the breed, Max and the SV, still use a Schutzhund title, show rating, and Kor rating as a basis for breeding? Personally, I think Max would role in his grave if he saw what has happened to his beloved breed. Just my opinion though. I believe any time something gets popular, money is involved, and politics gets involved you will see a decay or a breaking down of what once was about integrity. Take any subject and see if it doesn't happen. Look at what happens to any breed of dog that becomes popular in the U.S. Dobies, Rotts, Shepherds, Collies, Boxers you name it. Mals will have the same fate if they ever get popular.Unfortunatly the countrys that seemed imune to this eventually follow suit. With popularity you get money, and money always corrups, sooner or later. Then add politics and guess what. Wish it wasn't this way but that seems to be human nature.

I guess people are just being lazy. The fact is Schutzhund is merely a test, and just because a dog passes it does not remove the responsibility of a breeder to look at the dog objectively. I don't really think Schutzhund should be more 'real'...I actually like how Schutzhund is so simple and patterned that if you know how to look, you can see a good dog vs. a bad dog even though they're doing the same things. I agree that it's not the only thing that makes a dog breedable...because a dog, in the end, should be looked at as a whole. But I do think it's a good starting place...better to see a dog has accomplished at least a minimum standard than simply taking the owner's word for it. I read somewhere where they dared people who looked down on Schutzhund as a sport (read, those sport dogs aren't real dogs) to go up to any national and mess with the dogs, and see if they don't come out bitten. A powerful dog is a powerful dog, regardless of its training. Training hones it, but does not change the dog's true nature.

Max did not come up with SchH, that has its origin in the military. 100 years ago when the breed was founded there was no SchH yet. SchH is also not the only working test that is accepted under SV. HGH which is a herding title is a fully acceptable title for breeding. No bite work involved. Only if a HGH dog does the KKL will it be required to do bite work. But the KKL is desired, but not required for breeding! So a GSD can fulfill all breeding requirements without ever having even seen or touched a sleeve. Also accepted for breeding is a full RH3 (SAR level 3, only a specially certified judge can evaluate a dog at RH2 and RH3 level), also no bite work. The hallmark of the breed has always been the versatility, not any need of being a 'real' dog, or just a top SchH dog. IMO, what has been detrimental over the recent years has been the specialization and breeding for extremes. The GSD was always a multitasker. That is what has truly disappeared over time.

Doesn't the HGH examination have a "protective instinct" test after the herding work is finished? I couldn't find any description of the actual "protective instinct" test on the web, but a description of an HGH trial here in the USA contained an acknowledgement of the helper used, and a picture in Wynn Strickland's "The German Shepherd Today" shows a dog on a sleeve after an HGH trial.

Elaboration: I did find something saying that in the HGH "protective instinct" test the dog may bite if instructed to by its shepherd, but that biting is not required. I found "pronounced" and "existing" ratings for "protective instinct" (and I assume there's a rating for the dog that shows no protective instinct as well). From what I can gather the purpose of the test is to provide evidence of the dog's level of courage, but a dog that shows no protective instinct won't have its HGH title taken away.

I thought HGH had bitework in it originally, but it has since been removed from the test.

THe HGH dog shows its grip/bite on the sheep during the trial. After the HGH trial the dog is worked/shown in protection with a person but it is not required to grip in this instance. It must not shy away from the agitator, and it must show protective instinct. I can usually tell you what a gsd will grip like in a SchH trial if I am given the opportunity to see/work it on stock. The grip originates in the working SHEPHERD dog. The full mouth grip is needed on stock. A dog who does not grip with a full mouth will usually damage stock. I also beleive a dogs true 'courage' will be seen when worked on stock. The circumstances you see it/need it are not 'set up' for the most part. It is used when needed. A good HGH dog WILL grip when needed and will do it with a full mouth grip. If one reads about Max and his 'ideal' dog you will see how he had a LOT of respect for the working SHEPHERD dog (dog that worked sheep) and used him as an example of the 'ideal' german shepherd. The problem with SchH today is that it is a huge SPORT and no longer the measuring stick of a breedable dog. As said above, there are many SchH dogs NOT worthy of breeding but that title and letters at the end of the name has given many the 'right' to breed regardless of whether the dog is truely 'worthy' of being bred.