Researching puppy...working vs show observation - Page 1

Hi,

First, let me say I am not trying to start any war or insult anyone.    I have decided to get a puppy, but I am not in any hurry and I have been researching and reading this forum for months.    I currently have an 11 year old German Show Line shepherd.   When I got her I intended to do schutzhund and show, and I did show her twice, but after adopting 4 kids at once and moving due to job transfer, I never did follow through with the schutzhund training.    I have regretted it and decided that with my next puppy I will definitely do the training and commit the time.   I contacted two local clubs and will be visiting them to choose which one I will joing and also to learn as much as I can before I get the puppy.   Given this, I do have a few questions I hope you can help me with?

1.  Should I wait (still attend clubs, learn, etc) and not introduce a new puppy in my house with my 11 year old female?   My research on leerburg, etc. seems to indicate getting another dog at this time may be a bad idea.

2.  I had assumed I would just get another show line type dog, concentrating on getting the best lines I can (Chacco, etc.).     However, after reading so much on this site, I learned about other dogs such as Black-Jack, Drago, Pike, Hank, etc.  I watched the videos for these dogs, and there seemed to be something "special" about them.    I am not expert, and I don't know what I am looking for, but it seems so obvious that they moved so much more fluidly, were more agile, and their bitework was so impressive compared to the show lines.   I compared these videos to the top 10 VA dogs in the world and it was so obvious my kids even noticed.   I noticed the show lines slow down, hesitate, etc.   Now I am leaning towards working line.

Given this, and that I would be a first time handler (with some background), should I favor male or female?   Is getting a puppy from a strong line like above going to be too much for me?    I take my dog everywhere with me and I do have 4 kids (teenagers now).    

3.   If I go working line, is getting a puppy from Germany from one of the top kennels a good idea?   Specifically, will they sell a top prospect to me in America, should I be concerned about the effects of the shipping on the puppy, etc?  

4.  Finally, health is overall most important.   I had considered a malinois as I read they were generally healthier, but I also read they are not good for first timers and are much more hyper, etc.    Is there any health difference between working line and showline?    Meaning, is one generally healthier?  

I know some of these are loaded questiions and I have been hesitating to ask as I don't want to start any huge debate, but I want to make sure I make the best decision I can and I apprecaite any guidance and advice.

Chris

Thanks for all your help.   I feel like I know many of you after reading so many of your posts.

Quick comment 

I have owned three GSD's and currently own a WL. After seeing the commanding  bitework of dogs like Dasty Vom Gries, Gildo Vom Korbelbach, Drigon V Furmanshoff, sagus V Busecker Schloss,  Max V Tiekerhook, Francesco Anrebri, Tom z Pohranicni Straze, and Gero Blatenskeho Zamku, theres no way I can willingly  own an SL GSD.  Think carefully before you make a choice. On another forum, Prager Hans has posted link to the bitework of SL dogs at a recent Seiger Show. To see the highlevel of avoidance and uncertainty and lack of courage or fight in these SLdogs is very embarassing.

You ask a lot of tough questions . Can you visit some area kennels that breed both workingline and showlines (American and German)?  You can find nice dogs from both working and show lines and how the dog will work for you is really up to you and your environment.  To make it even more complicated, there are individuals of all lines that are more or less atypical of their pedigrees. Sorry, but IMO there is no pat answers to your questions, all you will hear on the net are personal preferences, no one can really advise you on what's best for you and your family. I'm afraid you may need to do some traveling to see the different kennels in your area and spend some time with their breeding dogs. Male or female is generally immaterial unless you want to be a breeder which really isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Good luck, take  your time, make you own decisions based on your own research.

It sounds like you have iven the future puppy purchase some thought - good on you, and this is what a breeder wants to know.   A good breeder will want to know your level of experience with dogs, your aspirations for your pup, the living situation at your home, etc.     Visiting clubs and talking to people about their dogs will help you to decide which lines (WL, CZ, etc) willbest fit your situation and experience.       You don't need to import a pup from Europe, there's many fine breeders in N. America that could match you up with a pup that will be a good fit.    Good luck.

I wanted to add one other recommendation - never select a pup based only on internet videos of the parents and relatives doing OB, protection, whatever. No one going to show their dogs doing substandard jobs so the videos you see on the net might be the best ones ever, not necessarily representative of the dogs'  usual performances. Not much in the GSD world is as it may appear to be.

Nobody is able to tell you if your 11 years old female will "like" a puppy, but for sure she deserves some peaceful time now - think about the dog that already lives in your household, not about your personal desires.
2 clubs in your area, that´s great! Don´t think about working/showline too much, observe the dogs in the clubs, there will be dogs you like, no matter which line - a pup out of dogs you know personally is always the best choice.
Dogsport is fun, good for the dog and good for the owner, but in the end you want to live with this dog for 10+ years, that said, go with a puppy you like ( and its parents ).

Good luck!

So much depends on the individual dogs!

I have 3 GSDs, a working line pup that's 7 months old, an American showline/German showline female that's 8, and a rescue male (looks to be working lines) that's 13.

The introduction of the puppy last November went very smoothly, and I have to say, I think she's helping to keep my old boy young! He plays with her, and actually is more tolerant with her than my female!

The pup also gets along very well with my cat, and they play together all the time. I sometimes feel sorry for the cat, then I will catch him deliberatly baiting her, and I change my mind. He will even take over her crate sometimes, and prevent her from going inside!

My showline female got her BH last summer, and we may try for an IPO 1 this year. The jury is still out on that, though, due to her age. I really wish I'd started schutzhund with her when she was younger.

All 3 dogs are great with kids, though the pup is still learning to have some manners, and not jump up or get excited.

There are definitely certain working lines I'd stay away from, due to their over-the-top drives, and there are also show lines that don't have enough drive to work. I've seen both in the club I belong to.

My suggestion would be to join a club, watch the dogs, ask around, and gather as much information as you can. And don't believe everything you're told. Check any prospective dogs out in person, and meet both the parents, if you can.

Here's my girl doing protection last spring. Showlines can't work? HAH!

your questions are similiar to the questions I had

I had an eleven year old shepherd and I was considering getting a second dog.  I chose not to, he lived to be 14 years old and I was glad in the final year of his life I chose not to get another dog, expecially during the last 6 months of his life. 

I also had a hard choice choosing between a working line shepherd and a show line.  I liked the straighter backs and energy and agility of the working line shepherd.  I also liked the temperment, energy and wisdom of the show line shepherd. After my dog, I took care of my son's working line shepherd for 3 weeks,  he had a lot of energy, more energy than I have ever seen in a dog, he could fetch non stop, he would lay down for 15 min and get up and run to the back door, then the front door, then lay down for another 15 min.  I had a hard time knowing when he wanted to go to the bathroom.  If you turned over in your bed at night he would get up to see what you were doing, I swore he was always awake. He would have made an excellent police dog, very athletic, intelligent and protective.  He was a lot of fun to play with, one time he picked up and 8 foot 2 X 4, he wanted to play fetch.  He is the only working dog I have had a chance to know and I'm sure there are a lot of differences in the line.

I finally chose to get a show line shepherd from Chacco.  I got him from Von Calvo German Shepherds, an excellent breeder,  he spent a lot of time with me on the phone and he sells his puppies for a reasonable price, I think he could sell them for more.  I have only had my new puppy for a one month and so far he has been great, but a different dog from my last dog, and they are both good dogs.  My last dog, Luke, always listened, would stay in one place for two hours if I told him to.  My new dog Rocky has got a lot of energy, he chews a lot, he chews on rocks, he bites a lot, there is no doubt he will be great at bitework, same as his dad. I have several chew toys around the house, when my friends come over and he starts biting their legs and they tell him to stop, Rocky will start barking at them, if I tell him to stop he will, he is not mean he is just playing, which to me is fun at this early age.  At the puppy play place he is very outgoing, he has to be put in time out sometimes, again not because he is mean, he is just energetic.  He is only three months old and so far I'm happy with him.  You can watch Chacco von der freiheit westerholt bitework on you tube years 2012 and 2013, also Mentos vom oster-berger land 2014 has good bite work, he knocked the guy down to the ground.   I still like the working line, and I wish I had more experience and knowledge, there were not any working line breeders close that I could go visit. I chose my puppy by watching you tube videos and looking at progeny photos.  I don't think there is a correct answer, its what you are looking for in a dog.

Everyone, thanks for your comments.   Clint, it seems our thoughts are almost identical!     Even though there is a chance the new puppy could give my older dog some more ambition, motiviation, etc., I have decided to wait and not purchase while she is around.   I agree that I should not risk upsetting her peaceful years, and I also thought about what it might do to the puppy to get used to her for a while (hopefully a long while) and then not have her around.    Good news is it gives me more time to learn from my local club, visit kennels, research, and keep reading the messages on this forum.   Bad news is I will likely keep changing my mind.   Clint, I would like to keep up with how the new puppy is doing, assuming you are planning IPO work for him?

Chris

It's about the GSD not the label show or work.  I have had great so called show lines with SCH III.  IPO titles of the parents tell you little that is worth knowing.  Find breeders close enough to travel to and go see their dogs and see how their dogs behave and what the personalities of the dogs and the breeder are like.  Clubs are usually built around or have in the pecking order one or two breeder so if you get started with a club you will feel obligated and perhaps become brain washed about that club's dogs.  Your puppy will be like the sire and dam that are the puppy's parents.  If you like dad and particularly if you like mom you will likely like their offspring.  Hard to say about the old dog with new puppy thing but it is the old dog that will teach the younger one so it is likely the puppy will learn from the grandma or nanny and an opposite sex pair would likely work best as as the older dog ages out and the young dog grows to maturity the young dog will become dominant and the old dog of the same sex will not be happy with a role reversal at the end of life.  I have seen this role reversal with mother/daughter pairs and it is a bitter pill to swallow for the older mother dog.  An older female with a male puppy should work fine so long as you don't neglect the old girl with your focus on training the young male.