Question for Experienced Breeders/Owners: Is this puppy growing too quickly? - Page 1

Hi

I would like to thank the many persons on here who have been sharing their knowledge about the GSD. I have a question/concern about my  WL GSD puppy, as to whether or not she is growing too quickly. At 3 month old she was  35.7 lbs ( first pic), at 4.5 months old she was  44 lbs ( second pic ) , and 6 months old she was 57 lbs and  with  10 days to go before she reaches 7 months ( 3rd pic ) , she almost 68 lbs. I understand that a male full sibling/litter mate  of hers is already in the 80-85 lb range. Her total  daily diet consists 2.5 heaped  cups of Origen LBP kibble with 1 lb very lightly  cooked shredded boneless chicken breast. Her daily supplements include grizzly wild salmon oil , probiotic by nusentia, and sometimes a scoop of Nupro. Recent fecal tests show that she has no parasites,and 1 time per month she is administered  sentinel spectrum ( as per her current weight ). Any informed opinion on whether or not her growth rate is appropriate?

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Hi there-

Would you mind posting some photos of her standing, from a side view? Looks like she may be overweight, hard to tell with the photos provided. Also, I would be careful about all the extra supplements while she is growing, especially since shes on a quality food. I personally don't think she needs to be on them. Do more research on puppies on Orijen, I have read very mixed reviews. Some sources say protein is too high, causing rapid growth. I have read several studies from vet schools(I can forward them to you if you'd like) that say protein can be high and cause no problems, as long as calcium and phosphorus ratios are what is recommended for puppies, and that they aren't overweight.

She looks like a large boned pup, she very well may be within a normal range :-)

Would also be helpful if you could get a measurement of her height at the withers--and there are differences among the lines with regard to both physical and mental maturation rates, so it's certainly possible that she's not overweight and is just from a line that tends to reach their mature height & weight at less than 12 months but which mentally develop somewhat slower than that, retaining some of their puppyish attention span and not attaining the full gravitas of the breed until they're as much as 3 years old.  She' s a very nice looking girl, and as hntrjmpr434 said, she has substantial bone, which is not a bad thing.

I cheated and looked at her pedigree. IMO, she is just going to be a big girl. Her ears look big so I am guessing she still has some more growing to do. I know some will disagree but if you are giving her puppy food you might consider switching to adult, the amount of food sounds about right if you are talking 1 heaping measuring cup. Orijen is pretty rich in my opinion and dogs needs less of it than most dog foods.

She is a nice looking girl and I am partial to certain lines in the pedigree. Thank you for sharing her with us.

Probably not .. she looks like she is perhaps a little heavy but if she gets lots of exercise and she is fed low carbohydrate she should be fine as far as joints and bones.  At her current age you might want to cut back on the dog food a bit if she is carrying too much flesh.  At 7 months she may be nearly through the exponential growth phase and she may not gain another 7 pounds in 7 months from here on out.  It is usually more of a problem when the puppy has growth spurts and uneven growth than just size alone.  Steady and rapid growth with even body proportions is not bad if you feed excellent food and give plenty of full out run till their tongue hangs out exercise.  Young dogs need to run until they get exhausted and then be allowed to rest and then when they are ready get up and run some more  .. free choice exercise off leash and as fast as they want to go.  I have fed some puppies pretty much all they want to eat but only with a raw food animal fat and animal protein diet.  I have also raised some with even supposedly high quality kibble and they have had more problems with uneven growth and are more likely to have joint issues.  Bone density and strength along with muscle and joint tightness affect the formation and strength of bones.  Exercise leads to stronger denser bones and that is a very good thing for a puppy while growing rapidly and forming the bones and connecting tissues that comprise the joints.  If a puppy does not get plentiful and challenging exercise then I think trouble is likely to occur regardless of diet but even more so with carbohydrate rich dog kibble diets.  Strong muscles and connective tissues hold the bones in proper alignment and help the bones form good dense structures as your puppy grows and matures and the growth plates eventually close. 

There's an easy way to tell if your dog is overweight--place your hands on either side of her ribcage; if the dog's coat is dense, work your fingers through the coat so that they're just about at the dog's skin.

At proper weight, you should be able to easily feel the ribcage with very slight pressure of your fingertips. If the dog is too fat, you'll have to apply more pressure to your fingertips to feel the ribs; too thin, you'll feel them with almost no pressure at all. If you can see the dogs ribs without even having to touch the dog, the dog is much too thin, as there should be a small amount of fat coverage over the body...from the side, a fit GSD at proper weight should not look like a Greyhound.

Now I remember this puppy--this is the very cheeky DDR-lineage girl for whom you were seeking a trainer near NY City with experience in evaluating dogs for personal protection potential.  DDR-lines have a reputation for maturing slowly, behaviorally speaking, but many of them do seem to be much closer to their adult structure earlier than one would expect. The dogs with DDR-lineage do tend to be on the larger side, with heavier bone, in comparison to the other working lines [West German, Belgian, the Netherlands, Czech...]; it's but one of the traits that attracts people to DDR-lineage dogs. 

I would not feed that diet to a growing, large boned puppy. In fact, I wouldn't feed Orijen to a puppy, period. Orijen is far, far, far, too much for most pets. Remember, any nutrients not burned off quickly by constant exercise are absorbed and puppy bodies are incapable of ridding themselves of excesses, as in the case of calcium. This is why a properly formulated large breed puppy food is important- it's the CALCIUM that is the danger. Some foods restrict protein and fat and those are not the problem. There is even a list on dogfoodadvisor where a woman who breeds large breed pups took the time to call manufacturers and ask the actual MAX calcium (not the min printed on the bag!!!) or average as tested. Remember, calcium content will vary with ingredient quality and sources, so if a large company is getting chicken meal from a really good source with very little ash, you'll have chicken meal that is likely appropriate for LBPs. If the next time they make a batch, they get a smokin' deal on some really low quality stuff with lots of ash, the "same" food you've been feeding may now have 2-3x the appropriate level of calcium. 

Back to Orijen- there is not a single Orijen or Acana formula that has been tested and deemed appropriate for LBPs. If I were to chance it and feed it anyway, I would certainly NOT be adding more to it. A wild canind eats, then travels sometimes long distances before getting it's next meal. Our pets fall victim to too much nutrition- sounds crazy, but think about it. Super nutrition at every meal with little exercise at a rapid growth phase is not natural. I argue this all the time with my puppy buyers. They think because their dog isn't "fat" (which I usually disagree with, lol) that it's not getting too much food or food that is too rich. Remember, puppies at this stage are growing very fast, so you'll be hard pressed to make them fat enough that average folks are going to think they're fat. What you're doing instead is spurring rapid growth which may or may not have disastrous consequences depending on the individual dog's genetics and other factors. 

My long-winded answer to your question of whether your dog may be growing too fast is yes. I would at least "cut" the Orijen with something safer, or stop adding meat on top of it, if not both. If she were mine, I'd feed raw at least a few times per week, and go with a maybe 1/2 Orjien LBP and 1/2 a grain free with much lower calcium, or even a 5 star grain-inclusive (just while they're growing!) LBP food with very low calcium to make up for the Orijen and add-ins. I am not a fan of Innova since P&G bought them out, however, both Innova LBP and regular puppy formulas are on the lowest side of acceptable calcium amounts for growing large breed pups. Wellness Core is right at the top of the safe range, so maybe that would be a good substitute for the Orijen? Zignature Trout and Salmon is safe, as are many many others and loads more if you don't mind a little grain (which I will accept only until they're over a year old or so, as I'd rather have a bit of grain in their diets than orthopedic problems from an overabundance of calcium).

Huge,oversize,but she should be very good brood bitch if bred to correct male,she may throw some awsome males.Many oversize bitches in Germany see only one or two shows in their life time,they are title,korung, and use just for breeding,and they produce much better males than those show smaller, feminine females.

It may be possible to slow her growth rate a bit, but her genes will determine her adult size.

Genes determine part of what happens with regards to adult size of a dog or human.  Environment is likely 50% of what happens after conception.  If you look at human development ... who have a much longer development period than dogs you will find that proper nutrition and health are huge factors in final size and weight of human beings.  The average citizen of the USA is taller and heavier ( not the obese ones ) than those born before WWII.  If you look at many immigant communities in the USA the first generation is smaller and lighter bodied than their better fed and more healthy offspring in the second and third generation.  The average Filipino is today much taller and weighs more at a healthy weight than their ancestors who were less well fed and had unhealthier conditions.  The idea that dogs will make up for poor growth in early life is a flawed model .. they can to some degree compensate but once the growth plates close they will not get taller.  The conditions in the mothers womb and for the early post natal period determine which genes are switched on or off and many individuals with stunted early growth may never recover to grow as they would had they had better growing conditions during gestation and early development.  The final size of a human or a dog is determined by genetics, environment, and the interaction of genetics and environment.