Help newbie understand database - Page 1

This is my first post and I am new to the forum.   I am using this database to research health, etc. of potential puppies I am interested in (german shepherd).    I have a few questions I was hoping someone could help with?

1.   What do the various words mean regarding DNA?   I understand MD but don't know what is good or bad to look for on the database?

2.  What ancestry should I concentrate on, and how far back?   Obviously the parents, grandparents, but how many generations should I research?

3.  Can anyone explain line breeding and inbreeding coefficient?   What should I look for (what is good and what is bad, if it is that easy)?

4.  I see a lot of dogs listed as V and VA, but when you look at the show results, for the german shows they are rarely V and VA, so I am assuming these are titles earned in other countries.    I also see many don't have any show results.    I assume the ratings for the german shows are more accurate as they are tougher?

Any other help or advice is appreciated.    I am new, so I am not trying to start any bad topics or offend anyone with my questions.   I did look to try to find my answers, but the help section was mainly for how to post, edit, etc.   

Thanks,

Chris

Chris, welcome to the database! Your questions are too numerous & rather involved. I don't know enough to answer many of them. VA & V are German ratings, but they are reserved for the best & next best, so you won't see as many of those as SG & G very good & good. 

Line breeding is very prevelant in our breed, knowing how much line breeding has gone into making a certain dog can help breeders be more aware of breeding to other dogs that have much the same lines or even that may carry known traits they may want or want to avoid. 

For some one looking for their first GSD puppy, first decide what you'll be doing with this puppy. Are considering starting in a dog sport, are you considering showing, or are you looking for an active companion? Health & temperament should be key considerations. A healthy, confident puppy should be a first time owners goal, unless you have some expertise in hundsports & are looking for a prey monster. Working lines GSD are generally harder dogs, meaning they can take correction, & are also more independent thinkers. Showlines are considered softer, less dominant dogs; but don't let that fool you, the hardest bitch I ever owned was a West German Showlines. She was an awesome dog....tolerated her greenhorn owner & defended me in every situation.

Evaluate each puppy for its own self. Pedigrees are nice to study, but each pup is an individual, & should be assessed as such. Start by going to shows, schutzhund clubs, visiting with breeders, reading through the threads here, especially the scam & accusational threads---those will make your hair stand on end. I got my first puppy years ago by visiting a breeder & falling in love with a puppy. Nothing more than that. My second was from a friend, lucky me, she bred k9s for local PDs, & her best friend was a master breeder of Showlines. 

My GSDs are my companions, they could have done great things, they have wonderful pedigrees. But being my friends, my protectors, & service dogs (my girl alerted me to my cancer), is what my dogs do; if there were trophies for that they would be champions.

Welcome!

jackie harris

Good questions Chris, welcome to the forum. As a newbie the biggest help a pedigree can give you is seeing the commitment a breeder has to their dogs. You should see an unbroken chain of working titles and HD/ED scores. It is common for poor breeders to point to the accomplishments of dogs further back in the pedigree so you do not pay attention that the parents of the litter have not proven themselves in any way. A West German Showline dog should also have an unbroken chain of show titles and breed surveys (KKL). The founders of the breed meant for each breeding dog to have a breed survey. Some workingline breeders will also breed survey their dogs and those dogs will have show titles as part of that breed survey. You will see a lot of VAs in Showline pedigrees especially among the males because the breeders are trying to maximize the potential of their breeding females. VA males get a lot of breedings even though the title is rare, making it appear in pedigrees that VAs are more common than they really are. A show rating is a grading of a dog and it should be graded to the same standard no matter where that rating is earned but a show rating earned at the BSZS does carry more weight than if it was earned elsewhere. I haven't answered all your questions but I thought I would start the ball rolling. Pedigrees have a more full meaning if you have personal experience with the dogs behind the pedigree.

Css33, here's a primer for the various terms re. the German dogs: http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/germanterminology.html

http://www.angesgardiens.ca/ANG/Glossary.htm

Linebreeding is a form of inbreeding. It means the breeder purposefully breeds dogs that have the same ancestors in their pedigree. This can be dangerous, as if the dogs are too closely related, harmful recessive genes can pop to the surface and cause unwanted and sometimes fatal problems. Heart defects, digestive problems (toxic gut syndrome, Epi (pancreatic insufficience) and megaesophagus are some of the problems that appear in the GSD and are know to be mainly genetic.

Linebreeding too closely also decreases longevity, fertility and overall hardiness. Different registries have different standards as to what is considered acceptable. With the SV, the German registry, generally the dogs will have no common ancestors closer than 4 or 5 generations. With the American Kennel Club, there are no rules, and it's not uncommon to see common ancestors 3 generations back, or sometimes even closer.

The amount of linebreeding is also a factor. A dog that is linebred on only 3 or 4 ancestors is likely not going to have any genetic problems, but when you start seeing lists of common ancestors in the pedigree that are 10 or 12 dogs long, you could be looking at trouble. Also, if the same dog pops up more than once or twice in the list of dogs being linebred on, that can also be a red flag.

Let me give an example:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1924558-benvillarosa-all-that-jazz

This dog has a very large amount of linebreeding in its pedigree, with some ancestors appearing as many as 6 times in 5 generations! He was put to sleep at a young age due to uncontrollable epileptic siezures. Other dogs from these bloodlines are also know to suffer from siezures. You will notice that the inbreeding coefficient is very high.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=575327-remo-vom-fichtenschlag

Here's 2x German Sieger, Remo von Fichtenshlag. He has what would be considered an acceptable amount of linebreeding, with only one common ancestors closer than 4 generations, and each ancestor appearing only twice in the pedigree. For instance,  3-3 on Huppy von Arlett means Huppy appears twice in the third generation of Remo's pedigree.

The breeding co-efficients are calculated using a complicated mathematical formula.

Linebreeding is a complicated subject, and there is a lot to learn about it. The breeder needs to know the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs he/she is linebreeding on, and that takes a lot of research, especially if he/she has never seen the dogs in person and had a chance to evaluate them.

Thanks for all of the responses.   I am looking to join a schutzhund club and also show the dog, and I have been to a few shows and clubs so I have an idea what I am getting into (but no expert by any means).   I just want temperment and health first, but I also want to give myself the best odds of success for showing, etc.    These answers help me a lot.   One other question is the dna data on the main picture of the dog.   I translated the german, and some say tested, some say on file, etc.  Is it safe to assume that if it shows dna tested or on file that the dog has been dna tested for DM?

DNA has nothing to do with DM. Very few German dogs will have been tested for DM. 

I am not sure what you are seeing but I don't believe it is testing for DM  or any other diseases. I personally wouldn't take too much stock in the DM test that is currently available. Dogs "cleared" of DM have been proven to have had DM upon necropsy. Read some of the past threads by Marjorie on this subject. The last thread was titled " Sad News About Dr Clemmons".

Welcome to the forums and PDB.

See measurement of inbreeding at this link for help with the coefficent. There are also some good articles on other sites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

DNA records on individual dogs are about identification, rather than disease.

please understand that this data base should be an inspiration to go join with fellow GSD friends to learn about this great breed and grow your dog and your knowledge of dogs. Visit as many clubs and training groups as you possibly can. There is a very small chance that the first group  you visit will have all of the answers you seek so see a few.