What's with this SIZE? - Page 1

After decades of owning and loving GSDs, and after years of researching and waiting for the "right" pair, I bred a litter. I did this breeding because a number of family members and friends were begging me for a puppy from my well-loved and (locally) well-known therapy dog - a once in a lifetime wonderful dog. The sire and dam are both W.German bloodline showline dogs, with lots of V and VA dogs in their pedigrees. All are solidly within the SV guidelines for height and weight. So... The pups are now about 15 months old. All have marvelous temperaments, are working and training beautifully, and some of their owners are reporting to me that they are the best GSDs they have ever owned. But... Several are seriously over-sized. One male is a whopping 72 cms! Where did that come from? I know I am potentially inviting a world of hurt by putting this question on this board, but please don't rip me up. I am hoping that some of you who have been breeding for a while will comment on whether or not you have seen the same thing - over-sized dogs from standard sized parents and heritage? How can I avoid this if I ever breed again? I am beginning to see how the often maligned American bred GSDs are getting bigger and bigger. Except that I certainly wasn't breeding for increased size; I was trying to breed to the standsrd. All helpful comments will be appreciated. Thanks, Rob

What have they been eating? Maybe that is a factor.

My dog and I share a box of ho-ho's every day... this is how we bond. Unfortunately, we are both enormous. If I were you, I would breed with a dwarf shepard. They are mean as hell because of being small - short man syndrome, which is great if you live in a bad neighborhood. Plus, since shorter dogs feel they need to "overcome" their size, they tend to be smarter, since that's all they've got. It's fun to see people giggle at the funny looking dog; "what is that thing?!" people ask. It's a great way to meet women as well. Good luck.

Many VA, Kkl1 (and other) dogs are not within the size standard. This may in fact be contributing to the problem.

I would look at the kk reports up the line to see if some were oversized. However, it is possible that the pups were fed food that was "too nutritious." Historically, dogs have never had access to food as rich as today's food... in a sense they have had stunted growth due to a normal amount of malnutrition. Some of today's food is too far advanced for our dogs though and can cause their bones to grow way too fast and much more than they naturally should have. Just a thought. Check with their owner and see what they have been feeding and the Calcium/Phospherous ratios.

gsdlvr2 - they were weaned on a raw diet. One of the big guys is still on a raw diet, the others are on Royal Canin, with an early switch to an adult formula. BTW, everybody's joints are good, so far. VomFelsenHof - you are right. I only know for sure that the sire, dam, and 2 of the 4 grandparents were solidly mid-standard size. (The other 2 I didn't meet personally). Also BTW - the over-sized guys are neutered, so it's not future breeding from them that I am worried about

amysue - People in general are getting bigger and bigger and are maturing younger due to improved nutrition. Maybe that is happening with dogs as well. Perhaps at some point the standard itself will be revised to reflect the effects of advancing nutritional science. In the meantime, we can't intentionally deprive our dogs of the best foods to keep them within standard. Can we breed them back to the medium sized dogs they were intended to be?

As far as feeding lower quality food just to keep them within the standard... no, I wouldn't advise that. However, if feeding them the richest food is causing their bones to grow too fast and increasing their chance of injuries, then I think one would best stay away from that. In the Thoroughbred industry, a lot of research has been done on the proper rate of bone growth... many, many horses find their race careers ended too early if their bones were allowed to grow too quickly. Slowed growth lets the bones grow thicker instead of longer. Too bad more research needs to be done on dogs.

That's interesting about the horses' growth. I had advised my puppy buyers to use Royal Canin, believing it to be state of the art. Thanks for your comments.

As VFH stated, the size standard is a sham. Judges routinely give good placements to oversized dogs. Most people keep growing pups lean thus maintaining a sustainable growth rate and likely reducing adult size to some extent. Your dogs may well be genetically larger than lean conditions allowed them to grow. I believe it quite possible that even the most perfect feed in excess could produce excessive growth. Dogs like most living things evolved to survive on very little. It is very easy to overfeed. I would advise the owners to keep them lean (for life), as American pet owners seem stuck on FAT = HAPPY. This is not a judgement upon people that I do not know, but rather a very sorrowful commentary on our society. Even a well intentioned dog owner will be thwarted, harrassed, and sabotaged in their efforts by friends, family, neighbors, and even complete strangers. It is good to hear that they have good joints, and quality feed. Best Wishes, Jonah