how do you improve on the withers...? - Page 1

I noticed working breed dogs have prominent withers... Dobes, RoTTs , St. Bernards. The GSD used to have prominent withers, although the older lines have dipping backs that make the croup somewhat higher than the back, they say these short croups give more power to the rear as compared to longer croups known to produce soft temperament. High croups with dipping backs are common in working lines and showlines have straight backs making it appear long couple with necks carried forward (athough the loins are short). If I want to improve on the neck and withers to make it LONG and LAID back what do I do....?

That is strange never knew structure could define whether a dog had a soft or hard temperment. Typo maybe?

But thats what working line people say... they prefer short croups ... while for show,. the longer croup the better Other than the back Topline // the croup is one major dividing factor that differentiates working line and show line structure... I prefer knowing wether its from a working line by judging the character and temperament...

The assumption that a croup dictates temperment is a large leap. About like saying that redhead's have a higher libido than brunette's. "Power" does not constitue working ability. The fact that there are showlines that can work and are powerfull contradict your theory on croup relating to temperment and character.

This false perception is likely due to the fact that short croups are VERY common, and have only been bred out through years of selection. The same effort goes into any structural trait: careful, patient selection. Best Wishes, Jonah

The Croup I believe is supposed to appear to be at either a 45 or 35 degree angle. That is what the SV judges look for. This has been determined to give the GSD more endurance and efficiency while at a Gait. Not enough of an angle will put a lot of stress on the front legs and withers from being propelled down and forward. Too much of an angle cause the dog to lose power by propelling the dog up to high. The example I was given was like when you throw a ball for distance. Think about the angle you would use, too much and the ball will go up too high and cover very little ground. Not enough will throw the ball into the ground. Now this angle is an SV standard for conformation. Im not too sure why anyone would want different whether it be show or working, this angle has been determined the best. Now if you are going by AKC standards for show, Im in the dark. As for the correcting the withers, I concur with the above statement from "jdh". I myself have never bred but this seems to be the only logical way of doing so.

Thank you for this golden piece of information about the croup angulation // Regarding withers I would like to get an improvement out of it, to make the back not too straight and long instead shorter with a well developed wither similar to that of Mallinois and Dobes without making a dip in the back and maintaining it level. // I remember I was told "BREED for RECESSIVES" shoulder angulations are normally steep, croups short, tails will somewhat curl due to the original Thunringer lines and all others that we dont like. Remember that the German Shepherd looks very different before to what it is now... I just wanted info on how to develop good SHOULDERS THANKs in advance...CHAO