Working line? what does that mean? - Page 1

Okay. I don't want to start the usual back and forth between showline and workingline enthusiasts. What I am looking for are legitimate answers to legitimate questions. 1) What exactly does "working" mean when referring to GSD's? Does it mean any job, such as personal protection, therapy canine, schutzund, herding, police or military canine, circus performer, family protector? If I train my dog to bring me a beer from the fridge, bring the newspaper to me, take out the trash or hunt rabbits, is that a working dog? 2) I have stated previously that I have never trained dogs for sport, but I have trained dogs for business and personal protection, so, are those considered working dogs? 3) If my showline dog attains Sch III, is she a working dog? Is a "sport" a job? 4) For those that are in the know, are there working lines and show lines in Rottweillers, Dobermanns and Labradors? A recent thread here "When did the Great Division take place", makes me ponder the question and wonder if there is a division. At first that sounds silly, but my meaning is that, are they not all working line dogs but some are just much better at it (generally) and some are just more handsome (generally)? At least one person on that "Division" thread, states that the U.S. is largely responsible for the showline GSD's, however, I have three showlines that came from Germany. There are many working lines that came from the U.S. I have read many posts on this site and observed many pedigree's here, that indicate a cross of show and working, and almost always in the vein of "a wonderful working dog" or "one of the best all around dogs I have ever owned", or similar statements. Of course there are the "get a real dog, not a poodle wannabee" kind of statements. So, I just want to know what the heck is a "working dog". If my dog will only bite a sleeve, and not a humans thigh, is that a working dog? If I undersatand Schutzund correctly, it is only a test or sport, used to prove that the dog "could" work, but is not necessarily a "working dog". Is this correct? Thanks.

They are opposite ends of the same rainbow!! As far as the term "working dog" by the strictest sense a dog that doesn't have a job is not a working dog. Bear in mind, by the same token, the bichon who is taken to the old folks home for pet therapy is as much a working dog as the businessmans' personal protection dog.

sue: Maybe I am being to precise, but like the bichon you mentioned, wouldn't any family dog that barks at strangers through its owners front window, be a "working" dog? And opposite ends of a rainbow would be exactly the same, wouldn't they? If your point was that they are all "beautiful" in their own way, I understand. If your point is that they are opposites, then I disagree. My dog has a job. She is to bark at strangers, strut her stuff in the front yard and front living room, to make someone think twice before doing something stupid. I would submit that my house dog, even if she was not trained, has a better chance of actually being classified as a "working" dog, than a Sch III dog which lives in a kennel out back. It is sort of like my 9mm "service weapon" versus my "Commemorative gold plated .357 revolver" in my display case. The 357 could do more damage with one hit, but it is not used for work. The service weapon is for work but is not as pretty or deadly. So, all of those Schutzund dogs getting all of those points in the trials, are demonstrating their ability to work but are not actually working. They are playing. Especially if they live in a kennel, which I would dare to say, most do.

I am not an expert but for me a working dog is the one that will do what you train him to do exceptionally for instance most dogs will bark when strangers approach, but a trained working dog will not bark or bite with no reason, s/he will evaluate the situation you train and make the decsion to atack or bark to the subject and MOST IMPORTANT a working dog will stop at your command, you can have a gun a be the best shotter as you mention here above but the merit is to know you have the power in control and you are not controlled by it.. in short your a working dog is the one that is far beyond the basics and can evaluate situations and MAKE decision....... a no working dog will can attack and bite but does not know how to do it efficiently and will not release at your command... show line dogs must not bite or be aggresive since people will come to look at and touch them, usually considered as lack of character by some but some of them can be train... Again I am not an expert but my limited experince with my ScHh train dog I hope I help you with my comments German Shepherds Casa Torres Montero K9 Email tormon-k9kennel@sbcglobal.net.

This is a little off topic but Do Right got me reading the other thread about when did the split take place. I was scanning the 1990 BSP results and if the info on here is correct, of the top 30 placing dogs, 23 or 24 of them had KKL1 rating. Now I know there are many factors that go into this...but if you look closer many of those dogs also have SG and V ratings in conformation. SOOOO it is possible to have a working dog with correct structure. I prefer the "working line GSD" that we see today as opposed to the "showline" 9 times out of 10. But I have seen some showlind dogs that can work. I am not just talking about Schutzhund....I have seen PPD, PSA, Sch, Ring, PSD, SAR, Therapy. To me pedigree dont mean SH*T, if the dog can work, it is a working dog. If you look at some of the BSP dogs in the late 80's & Early 90's...more the 80's many of the dogs have what we call "Showline Dogs" Weinerau (sp), Auducht, Batu. Would you not call Cliff Vom Hunnegrab a working dog? There was also a dog from Vom Batu that placed in the top 10. I have said it before I have never met a dog that can read a pedigree. The dog does not know if it is "working or showline" it is in the dog, not what is on paper. Too me if a dog can do one of the jobs i spoke of before, and do it well...im ot talking about just going throught he motions. Then it is a working dog! Shawn

DR&FNO: I think I was trying to say "working dog" is a really broad term, & the bichon is opposite, but still on the same plane or spectrum. I think of schutzhund sport dogs as working dogs, but maybe it would be more accurate to describe it as my dogs' hobby!!! You make a really good point about our house dogs having the job of barking to alert us & being a visible deterrent. I'm thinking they get no respect & are under appreciated much as housewives are.

sueincc: my wife concurs with you :)

I concur with me too. Sue

Steffen Haus puts all SchH3 on her dogs and they are all show so even though they attain with wonderful numbers she is a showline and they all go to V VA and V1 and so on she is not a working line kennel....but I can say that if u take one of her dogs and u decide not to show it but do the training in SchH and get all titles and kk1 or 2 and u want to work that dog and not show it I know it will do the job I have a whole kennel of them but they do have Enclavehof on the other half......doesnt matter....Ive seen her lines do just the same....good question DORIGHT.....and I have a 357 Magnum Chrome Plated in the cabinet and didnt want it fired and one day after my husband passed someone took it outside to see what it would sound like and now its been used...no biggy I just wanted it like he left it unfired....my e 38 special uses the same bullets...and I at one time had a 45 or some such number, cant remember cause I sold it. THey bite just like my gsds.....I get gun decimals and engine horsepowers and nos mixed up if not careful...Vrooooooommmmm bang bang!!!!!

working line, IMO, is a line that is selected for performance. working line people tend to select for performance first then looks, if at all. show line people tend to select for looks first then performance, if at all. a great example of this was a lady came to our club, that bred very nice show line dogs, to have a litter tattooed. she spent the day and worked the puppies. two of the eight puppies were very nice, they bit the rag very well not afraid of anything very friendly great food drive. the rest of the litter did nothing. after i seen the two that looked very good to me she mentioned that she was going to keep at least three of them until they were a little older. i figured she would definetly be keeping the two that worked well. i then made a comment about the two i liked and she informed me that she had decided that those two would go to pet homes because they didn't have as nice of toplines and their pigments weren't as nice. but it's the same with the working line people. i selected my last couple of puppies purly on traits that i would concider good for schutzhund and nothing for conformation. imo you could take two conformation dogs breed them together select the best working pups from the litter and continue this trend for a couple of generations and you would get a line that produces good performance dogs. but then ofcource you would have to call them working line dogs.