When did the GREAT DIVISION took place... - Page 1

When did the GREAT DIVISION took place between working and showlines... And can any one, give suggestions on how to bring it back together again... My way is to train my dog to the best of my ability... breed only what could be better than his parents... and try to get into the standards both physically, mentally and usefullness for me and not for anyone's extreme FADS wether for beauty or for sport... What I want is a total dog... for me and not for anyone else.

For us the big divide was when breeders here in the US (mainly) wanted a very flashy showy dog.They threw out all that were blocky, or slightly larger in muscle and breed specificly for the thinner slopping backed show dog.Due to this most breeders (and they still do this -- and it is beyond us whey they do it but??) started to inbred and linebred very closly.If a dog or bitch went BIS (at a major show) every breeder wanted to breed to that dog.The problem was the owners allowed these dogs to bred as many times as they could be (females every heat cycle & males 20-30 bitches per year). This is one large problem Myself and my family has with the AKC and the US breeders.Any dog or bitch can be bred no matter what it looks like or acts, they do not even need a title or championship.One major reason we here at VonSieglerKennels try to import or buy from imported animals of the three major breeds we have (GSD, Rottweiler, and Siberian Huskies). Now this is not to bash all US breeders, becaues like us there are many who are very good breeders and only want what is best for the breed.Those who try to bred for the original standard are actually breeding for a dual purpose dog (show and go), that is what the GSD was originally bred for.They are a family (showy) dog but above all a working bred 1st and foremost. Hope this is not too long or borring.If you truely have or want the ultimate GSD they will be SHOW & GO.

The "Great Divide" I think you are speaking of is when the Martin Brothers ran the SV. That is when people started breeding for the black and red and not so much for the working ability. Bringing the working ability back to the german showline is very near and dear to me. My recommendation? enough of the crappy "performance" test at the sieger, and giving pronounced for dogs that have the sleeve placed in their mouth by the helpers. Make it a true test! No more "bought" titles, make the dogs earn their titles! Stop breeding for the "golden middle" and breed correctly. You will get a few "golden middle" anyway, so breed for the best, using the best. Stop looking to V and VA dogs for breeding and use a few SG and G who can actually work. Pretty doesn't get the job done! breeding dogs who can do the work CORRECTLY to other dogs who do the work CORRECTLY will benefit the breed. Weed out the dogs that only get titled because their owner "knows someone". Trial your dogs on fields other than your training field with helpers other than the one who works your dog, two weeks before trial or sieger.

I think it will come back together when german working & german show breeders recognize there is room in the spectrum for sporty types & less hyper types. Working people have to appreciate the show types (after all, we don't want malinoisy shepherds) & show types have to appreciate our more revved up dogs. We need to recognize & appreciate the good people on both sides of the fence, in order top protect the breed.

Mr.VonSiegler, I understand what hapenned that period in time but there was a significant change in U.S. GSDs. I am aware that there is a big difference on American and German lines but remember the GSD was not that good looking during the earlier times if you look at its history. From a working dog it lost its job sheep herding because there were too few sheep to tend. The founder had to give this beloved dog of ours something to do thats why it went to the police , army SAR, for the blind people and even for the family just to give it a decent job. It really depends on who this dog will go to. We dont want a sharp, hard hitting dog near anywhere near a todler. Breeding for beauty and quality, I think started after the WW2 after Germany got devastated and the Germans have to put some not so good dogs and only keep dogs that can perpetuate the breed...( let the dog PROLIFERATE and EVOLVE to something both of Beauty and Utility ) They found that its a good market and the're selling for GOOD OLD DOLLARS,Yens and foreign currency... They breed only what the buyers would like and that why it was SHAPED to BE Sold... after BZSZs you see plenty old dog owners trying to sell dogs that they dont need for breeding or if they had already get progeny out of it. Remember if Germany sold everything that was good, what will be left to be Bred for future use. I prefer having the GSD back to the Herding group (by the way was replaced by Huskies... you have one for me?) To bring it back to ROOTS and bring back Show and Working Line together again. Mr.DeesWolf, I understand what the Martins did manipulating the breed to something that can be sold universally to anywhere in the world. I will do that also if I were in their shoes... You give your countrymen JOBS. People earn by Breeding // handling dogs and training them. Basically we have a VERY LARGE DOG MARKET. I know a good breeder who will sell his pup to someone he thinks can Train him: and will buy back the pup for a large sum of money when hes trained // get a helper to dramatize how good the dogs is : and sell the dogs afterwards to non Germans When I look at a GSD I look at the dog itself and not the titles whether training or beauty titles // I look at the progeny waht it can bring and try to study the genetic qualities this dog can bring I show dog cant really Bite and Out if the bloodline is really SOFT.. A hard dog can be obnoxious and unstable also. What is required of GSDs according to the founder is UTILITY and INTELIGENCE // Obedience, Tracking (also coined as inteligence as to hunting) and protection (will protect its owner and property and will not bite if it can be done another way) Will only Bite if necessary to accomplish the task. Too long for you all, I'm sorry but I had the time.. till next time

Well said Ms. sueincc Chao...

Thanks for the compliment. Just to be clear, I don't want to see the working lines "mellow", I just think there is room for BOTH types, crazyass working dogs & show dogs that can still do a little work!

Point: As long as W german showlines refuse to incorporate Black, Bi-color, and sable dogs into their lines the temperament will not improve. The black and red/tan has deteriorated to Canto/Quanto and without the infusion of the lines that come with those other colors temperament will continue downward. I don't care what they do at the seiger show in terms of raising the standard of protection routine. It starts with genetics, it got to its present state with genetics(eliminating the other lines by color and type),and it will not recover without genetics. Then when you start improving the genetic stock the physical manipulations can help further the equation. There are some workinglines that are producing consistent V dogs in conformation thus having the golden middle, BUT the showline judges are not going to put these dogs up in the high enough positions, often enough, for the show BREEDERS to want to go to them. A lot of breeding is because of the accomplishment of the dog(usually the uninformed). The other reason these JUDGES and show BREEDERS won't use or place the nicely conformated workingline is the resulting litter won't produce the uniformity of type that can be so profitable.JMO

Speaking as a woman with show lines from Germany, a few who can actually work, and I have a working line, I know that the majority of show line breeders put entirely too much "stock" into the sieger shows, and drool with anticipation of what will happen at those shows. We all know that dogs are handed sleeves, given pronounced for crappy bites, can't heel to the blind (most of the time) and outing is a concept they mostly don't comprehend. Granted, some of that is a training issue, a lack of training, BUT, if truth be told, many are lacking the true aggression in their genetics, the commitment to the fight. Yet, these "soft" dogs are being bred and passing on those genetics to more pretty dogs. We are producing black and red retrievers that would rather run off the field than commit to a courage test. We all know incredible working line dogs that take our breath away when they work, and think "My GAWD! I could never handle a dog like that." Yet, many of those dogs are wonderful house dogs, great with kids, and are exactly what Stephanitz said the dog should be. I want to see that in the show lines. I want to stand in awe of a dog that can commit, show aggression, and not hear the crowd just oooooh, aaahhh and applaud when the dog actually outs. Raise the test at a sieger show, and watch the pretty dogs drop out of sight. That way the cream of the crop rises to the top! you may find your V and VA isn't the be all. Pretty can do the work, but they are few and far between...Give me a SG that can make the working dog crowd go WOW! that's the dog I want to breed my bitch to!

The great division for all breeds begins at the same time. When people start breeding for specific colors, size, looks, etc, rather than working ability (the reason we took to the particular breed in the first place). Making dogs into show dogs has destoyed many a breed. The Border Collie is next.