Weaning off of the Toy or Food in Obedience - Page 1

Suggestion was made that I should exlain how to do this.  So I am.

Starting with a video.  Young dog, good drives, clear in his foundation and ready for some finishing work.

I show four steps (there are more or slightly different ones).  Food is done with the same concept.

See what you see and ask questions and if you have ideas or suggestions to make it better I'm always looking for ways to get better.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bmvke5vhteymhcy/20141011_164115.mp4?dl=0

I'll need to watch this again and study your video further, but I loved the dog's reaction to the moment in time where the ball went missing.  He's looking around and you corrected him with the leash.  After that, his obedience is good, but he is not as animated as when he knows he will be rewarded with the toy.  Is that something we all just have to accept?  Animated and enthusiastic obedience when the dog knows he will be rewarded, but slightly flat work when the dog believes no reward is forthcoming?  Thanks for making the video.

Weaning the dog off the ball is pretty much straight forward. The issues I've had with my dog is how to keep her attention as well without it as with plus she lacks enthusiasm as soon as she realizes there is no food or a ball. I then get a flat perfomance that will pass, but not what I am looking for. I may just have to accept that it's the way it's going to be with her. 

Rally advanced has especially been a big problem with her. Without food or a ball when we're trialing, she doesn't focus on me  much, looks everywhere else and that  leads to her missing a turn or a platz or a come forward or whatever. Only permitted one do over. I don't like to use more than one command although that alone isn't a DQ in rally, I just feel as if it creates more bad habits I don't want to deal with. I got this dog when she was 3 1/2, her 8th home and I doubt she was taught to do anything but show in the AKC ring. Frankly I am angry at myself for ever introducing her to food and toy rewards as her last 2 trials have resulted in DQ's because she got cases of the zoomies and completed the entire routine all by herself knocking over the station signs and taking the jump multiple times, maybe a different training issue, not sure. If I'd have had a treat or toy in my hand  she would have done everything perfectly. She's very food and ball driven. I think she may never earn her RA title.

Nice video, nice dog....thanks.

Due to Cirberus having ME, we can't use a lot of food reward and her toy drive is very minimal.     For her, the love is a good belly scratch and a big hug.   We have the same issue.   Training is very animated as she knows reward is coming.   During a full course though (agility), she is not as animated, as reward takes too long.

i am trying to associate a word as a reward too, as I can say whatever on the course.   It is still hit or miss.      Someone suggested making the run itself a reward.  I am not sure how to do that though.

keep up the thread.  Especially with any suggestions to keep up the animation without immediate reward.

 Great video and good looking dog.

Nope you don't have to accept the lack of animation. What you are doing is teaching the dog to have faith.faith that when he offers the correct behavior then he will get the reward.  There is in this phase the teaching of the concept of discipline.  He must still do what he knows even without the reward in sight.  Notice be doesn't lose animation with the ball in the armpit or behind his head in the hand. The first time he did just as he did in the video when the ball was thrown away.  The handler also has to have faith in his dog and believe that he can as he trains the ball gone.  If the handler gives up too fast the dog will learn to stay flat.

I’ll throw out this question for discussion: why do you feel it’s necessary for the dog to be weaned off of the toy at all?  I, personally, want my dog to work like the reward is always there and can come out at any time and am pretty sure that everyone I train with approaches this the same way.  The only time there is no reward is in a trial…but the dog doesn’t know that.

Doesn't matter if we are practicing or trialing, my dog knows when there is no reward, Keith, and it effects her performance.  I'm referring to AKC OB. I've had the same problem with another breed, so will never again train a dog using food or toy rewards. Also in AKC OB, a dog leaning into the handler staring up at his or her face is labeled crowding and is a sustantial deduction so we don't want that. .

Ah, ok; I suspected this might have more to do with AKC obedience which I admittedly know absolutely nothing about.  Thanks for the clarification!

And I know nothing about your training world other than at the AD BH level and that's as far as I've ever ventured .

Nope, has nothing to do with AKC obedience.  Is all about training.

Keith, I want the dog to KNOW that whether he "thinks" I have the toy or not he will ALWAYS get a reward for the correct offer of behavior.  The throwing of the ball is just one way to teach that even though it's gone, have FAITH it will be back and you will get it for your work. There are other ways to do it. 

Blitzen, this is what is missing in your training.  Your dog lost the faith in you and you lost the faith in your dog.  Your dog believes if the reward is gone then they have no chance to earn it so why bother.  You had no faith in your dog being able to work with out the toy and gave up searching for answers to solve the problem.