A video appeared on Youtube today purportedly showing a Police Officer abusing his department K9 - Page 4

Freakin' Rhino ... horn, thing... gets me every time.

Mindhunt, the problem with relying on 'research'  [& btw wtf has rhino horn got to do with anything ? -

as Spock would say:  "Illogical, Captain"]  is that a lot of that research is done on little pet dogs,

and often by people predisposed to worry like your average pet owner about the effects on their

animals of all sorts of stresses and strains.   While I agree that just because a dog is strong and

can 'take it' without too much damage does not mean it should have to, particularly on any frequent

or consistent basis,  I do ask you to consider that those handlers who have spent a lot of time around

working dogs do know what we are talking about when we speak of it toughening up those dogs, &

them being chosen in the first place for their resilience, because  it does produce reactions and

circumstances which I doubt the researchers into pet behaviour ever see. 

Those researchers (read: people who studied dogs in a classroom or lab but have never trained a dog on a field) are the same people who advocate the use of things like so-called "gentle" leaders.

Yeah, that research is done mostly on behalf of rescue charities etc, isn't it Keith ?

It's not like its very objectively 'scientific'.

Boy, it would be nice to just agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions.

bzcz, Since 2010 alone there are plenty of journal articles citing the reseach findings, to list them all would be taking up lots of room.  You may need access to research sites or databases otherwise you end up paying for the articles.

Hundmutter, KG, The scientific research is out there and for it to be empirical, it needs to be generalize, reproducible in the "real world", and so on.

You generally start research in the "real world" to observe behavior and to begin to formulate you hypotheses.  You also want to make sure to clarify your independent and dependent variables.  Research in controlled environments allows for identification of confounding variables (those variables that are unexpected or unaccounted for).  Once you have your reliability and validity of your testing then you go back out into the field to find the answers.  Research has been done with working K9s, SAR dogs, and even sport dogs.  One article on bomb dogs showed that handler beliefs impacted dog's performance, the same with K9s.  Not all research is done for rescue charities.  Dogs are also used in psychology to test affect and cognition.  One of my doctoral dissertation readers has used dogs in both lab and out in the "real world" to study curiosity, motivation, and other areas of interest.  My good friend is doing research on K9 training methods for her PhD and is doing it in the "real world" and has been a working dog trainer for over 30 years.

As for the rhino horn example, do I need to explain what a metaphor is Hundmutter? Using it to underscore how human beliefs can be so entrenched that any research indicating otherwise is ignored.

Yeah beetree, gets me too.

I may not always agree with some of you, but I always learn something.  Guess we have to agree to disagree, but then again opposing sides make things interesting

Mindhunt. Nice try. That's a big non answer.  Research is almost never based on the most effective way to train a dog. There's no money in that to fund a research project.  My wife does genetic research and has access to data you can only dream about. 

Next time you want to throw b.s. around try somewhere else.  No one pays for research on how to train dogs.  

 They do use them as test subjects.  Here's a really sad example.  They put dogs in a small four sided solid wall enclosure and shocked them into submission.  They did this to the point that when the dogs were  brought to the enclosure they would automatically fall into submission.  Then they took these dogs and put them in a similar enclosure only it was open to the front.  The dogs still went into submission and when shocked.They wouldn't leave.  The control dogs always left.  The research dogs none of them ever left the enclosure no matter the level of the shock.They had given up.  It was a research study on torture and depression in people.  That's how dog research generally works.

Unfortunately bzcz has a solid point about the more 'scientific' -side research projects.

[One of the reasons I have always opposed animal experimentation].

The ones that we get reported in the general media and dog press etc are the ones

carried out by animal welfare organisations;  and both bzcz and Keith are correct there,

they don't look at training methods for protection or law enforcement work , or hundsport.

I'd be really surprised, Mindhunt,  if you can produce 'chapter & verse' on any that actually

do.  As was said,  doesn't happen 'cos "there's no money in it".

Does not mean I am in total disagreement with you -  as I said, no dog should be subjected

to regular ongoing abusive treatment;   and I have personally no objection to using a 'gentle

leader', or any other halter, where that suits the dog and the circumstances, for instance.  I

am very 'pro' using modern, encouraging, positive training methods.  But there are many areas

of grey in the dog-training world, it is never just black v white as some seem to want to believe.

A very lively, driven, large-breed working dog is a different 'kettle of fish' from a Golden Retriever

or a Spaniel  (I think probably some of the ratting terrier breeds are a closer comparison !)  and

can therefore be very resistant to corrections.  The Officer in the video was wrong in the way he

handled the situation, but sometimes the pressures of police work, on getting things done in time,

etc, are likely to make people forget their training and lose their patience.  It's bad,  but it's not a

major disaster, and does not deserve to be turned into a crisis.

 

PS  I knew you were using the rhino horn as a metaphor;  just thought it was a bad one for what you

were trying to say.

Just to sort of look at a nice video involving LEO and a Dog, since we have a few negative ones already posted on the database and the one in this thread has been on at least twice.

The dog is in real time pain in this video, you can tell by the sound it makes before it gets rescued.
Dog Surprises Officer After Being Freed From A Fence

 

The perception of abuse or correction (in the video we are talking about) seems to depend on the type of dog people are used to handling.   My WL would not be phased by what I saw there.   My SL would never even require it.   My Jack Russels would rather die than let go of the groundhog.  And so on. 

People see things differently because of their experiences.  So, in this context, I have to agree with those that handle lots of high prey drive dogs as to whether this particular incident was abusive or not.   

And one quick sideline on dog research.  One of the most interesting studies I read was done by a guy who specialized in primates.  He didn't know the first thing about dogs.  Didn't even know they would look where a person pointed.  (apparently primates don't).  

Just sayin.