Tooth issues related to conformation rating/KKL - Page 1

For those of you with good backgrounds, can someone share the rational behind such a severe penalty for a GSD who is missing a P2, for example in terms of the conformation rating and breed survey designation that can be earned? Of course, full dentition is always to be preferred. But why, for example, is a double P1 allowed, but a missing P2 severely penalized. If such a tooth is missing, an otherwise excellent conformed dog would only be eligible for a G conformation rating and a KKL2 when titled and breed surveyed. Some have suggested tha certain faults, though seemingly minor, are also often tied to other genetic faults. Can anyone who really knows a lot about the history of dentition and show ratings and breed surveys post a response and cite references, if possible? Thank you in advance.

I know that sometimes a double P1 can be a puppy tooth that does not fall out when the adult tooth comes in, as opposed to a P2 that just isn't there.

Hodie, old time breeders of my era used to say that any missing premolars can be linked to a shallower jaw or shorter roots of the teeth, referred to as a weak lower jaw. One premolar is considred much less seruious than two or more. Premolars can be there but not take due to the shallow roots, or may be missing altogether. The reasoning goes that if a weak lower jaw thus occurs, it is genetic and can potentially limit the ability of the GSD to use his mouth for eating, chewing bones and "work", thus must be "bred out" by using dogs dominant for correct dentition. I have heard that a missing premolar can be a developmental accident also, not genetically linked in some instances. If an animal carries highly valued traits in general making it valuable for breeding (great temperament, clean hips, healthy, good structure, etc.) one needs to compensate for a mising premolar by breeding to a dog from lines known for producing proper jaw/teeth confirmation. Someday when the gene map for the canine is completed, the actual specifics will be discovered.

Hi Preston, Thank you for the information. You and I have already discussed a specific situation, but as I thought about it, I wondered why a single missing P2, or a P1, for example, would be so heavily penalized under the "rules". I have heard that sometimes these teeth are actually present but just don't erupt, so in my specific case, I will be interested to see if that happens or if an x-ray shows the tooth is there. Of course, developmental issues could also be at play. As we have also discussed, additional traits any given dog brings to the table should always be considered in the overall picture and with the dog in question, based on what I know so far, there is no question the dog has many qualities that far outweigh this missing P2. Was wondering how you were and just had not had time to email. Best regards!

My 3 year old bitch has all of her teeth but is 'overshot'; she has good hips, normal elbows, very intense drives, very intelligent, learns quickly, eager to please, very protective, I've been told she is very "sharp"...and she has a good hard, full bite. How detrimental is the flaw of 'overshot'? jo

It can be minor to disqualifying, depending on how 'overshot' she is.

2mm are allowed. That is about the width of a match stick.