Problem w/ Inbreeding Coefficients?? - Page 1

Just curious if this seems off to anyone else. Pull up this pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=746169-princesa-alaska-de-casa-chavana  and select to show 7 generations of linebreeding.

Note that V Hexe von der Römerau and V1 Cim vom Ecknachtal are shown as 5-7 with a Hardiman's coefficient of 3.13%. Yet Zamb 5,5,-6,7 is only 2.15% and Mark von Haus Beck 6-5,6,7,7,7 is only 1.46% and Jeck  5,6,-6,6,7 is 1.56%. Now the last three all contain 5-7 linebreeding or closer ( mark is 6-5) in addition to further linebreeding but have much lower coefficients.

Now I admit I am not that familiar with hardiman's coefficient and need to study up on it  but based on logic alone this does not make sense to me that dogs with higher levels of linebreeding would have a lower coefficient. The only thought that springs to mind is that the individuals in the Zamb, Jeck and Mark linebreedings were all unique individuals from different pairings while the Hexe and Cim linebreeding is actually the result of what I call litter linebreeding in this case the litter brother and sister Natz and Nino. Does hardiman view litter linebreeding as one generation closer or 4-6 and thus the score? If so why not indicate it as such ( litter linebreeding N litter Romerau 4-6)

Anyone beside me that would like to see Olli offer us a choice of how to show linebreeding - the old classic way giving us the opition to look at up to 8 generations straight linebreeding rather than the  coefficient method with the subsets fo advanced linebreeding shown under discrete individuals? I like looking quickly and easily at what is massed at the back end of the pedigree because I have seen too many times it can have an influence - generally speaking a recessive that has been lurking undercover can pop out as one increases the density of probability of two carriers mating.

No interest? No knowledge of Hardiman's coefficient to share? Don't care what the linebreeding shows or how it shows because we breed by the seat of our pants?

Just curious - there used to be at least one or two individuals that kept up on the scientific side of things. All gone?

This is an interesting read: http://shepherdinquisition.blogspot.com/2006/01/inbreeding-coefficients-what-are-they.html

Celtic, thank you very much for that link. I am confused tho because if it is true that Hardiman's limits to the first 5 generations and will look at one sided linebreeding, then Zamb in the above example should have the highest coefficient. Obiously need to do more reading and researching because this in part raises the question of whether whatever calculator Oli is using is calculating the coefficient correctly. If not we have a useless piece of info.

Would still be interested in anyone else prefers the old way of indicating line breeding - just a simple 3,5,7 - 2,4 typle of thing and then let us make our own assessment whether that actually means anything because the reality about an linebreeding indication or coefficient is that they mean nothing unless you understand what trait(s) that linebred ancestor had that you want or don't want and were they expressed in the intervening generations because if not it unlikely you'll get what you are looking for.

The one embellishment I would like to see is the ability to show litter linebreeding.
 

It shows linebreeding for mating outcome. It has for a while, It is beautiful.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=402962&mother=403360

 While breeders often say things like Linebred R litter Osnabrücker Land, this just helps people remember the individual dogs but the actual linebreeding is still on the parents of said litter and not the actual litter. Another reason that was done, was that paper used to hold a fixed ammount of generations (paper pedigree), for a long time a four-generation-pedigree was the normal and expected standard pedigree. The GSDCA breeders code stated that all code signers give each new puppy buyer a 4 generation pedigree. (Before the internet) Often there was extra linebreeding not on the 4 generation pedigree form, and it would be mentioned as a litter linebreeding for the sake of simplicity.


 Inbreeding numbers (coefficients) are important because they measure a form of population fitness. The higher the number, the more suseptable to inbreeding depression. An acceptable number varies from population to population, and we will have to see what it means for dogs and individual dog breeds as we get more data. 

Inbreeding depression is real and has been observed by livestock producers for at least the last century. The arguement in favor of inbreeding is that it helps a breed improve in quality and uniformity by concentrating on the best individuals within it. 

So, you have to balance the two.