The end of Schutzhund - Page 3

Many people have wasted years (and fortunes) in pursuit of meaningless notariety for themselves and their dogs.  Shocker.  With changes to the grading system, they can all be "winners", ha ha.  Or, equally LOSERS.
 

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism. All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little ...

The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. All failed to their great surprise and the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder to succeed the greater the reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

Love it! We are somewhere between D and F...

Thread title should be:  The final blow to shutzhund as a some measure of work ability,

In my view as the gs became a top pet breed for its pet e ness  and then breed out civil, work ability and function, the need to test for worthiness is irrelevent to the pet market.  People rely to much on titles too much on health certificates, too much on OFA and on and on, all crutches. Too much to hope for that buyers and breeders will start to educate themselves?

uh huh
 

Posting comments from Duplicate deleted thread.

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by Jim Engel on 05 February 2014 - 20:02	Jim Engel Posts: 90 Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 09:17 pm
http://www.angelplace.net/usca/SchutzhundOver.htm

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by susie on 05 February 2014 - 20:02	susie Posts: 1072 Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 05:33 pm
For those who are interested in the truth: In Europe there are laws, and in Europe there are animal laws. Right now SV, DVG, DHV, ADRK, DV, and all the other working dog organizations, still are allowed to do Schutzhundsport. The only reason, why we still are allowed to do so, is because of the amount of people organized in clubs. One member = one vote... Pinch collars, e-collars, are forbidden by LAW, SV tried to fight against these rules for years, made studies, on and on, but lost against law. Right now there is a lot of trouble, because high SV members are accused by German law. Cropping tales and ears - forbidden by LAW, the breed clubs did their best, but really, wherefore? Vertical wand - I´m glad, it´s gone. Mr Engel, did you ever see some of the useless victims of early dogsport and the vertical walls ??? Stick hits - forbidden in Switzerland already, SV still tries not to change the rules, we will see when German law is going to follow the rest of Europe. We ( in my case the SV ) are fighting for our "culure of dogsport", we are fighting for our breed, we are loosing every day a littlebit more of our 100 years old culture, and there is the difference. WE are fighting for our sport, YOU don´t even train ( looking at the amount of people living in the United States and the percentage of people being involved in ANY dogsport - that´s ridiculous ). If you, Mr Engel, are able to take "responsibility" for a breed you never cared before, please do so, we, the Germans, would be glad to import good dogs for sure...but as long as people in your country neither are interested in training nor are interested in the breed standard as a whole, I don´t think this will ever happen. But sometimes miracles do happen - I don´t care where good German Shepherds are bred, a good dog is a good dog.

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by Hired Dog on 05 February 2014 - 21:02	Hired Dog Posts: 348 Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 04:46 pm
Susie, with all due respect, who passed these laws, who allowed them to become laws, who let them get out of the "drafting board" and on to a ballot?

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by susie on 05 February 2014 - 22:02	susie Posts: 1072 Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 05:33 pm
No problem, Hired  - 1. We are living in a democracy with several parties, within these parties a lot of people are fighting for animal protection. Why? There are 1000s of 1000s of people organized in several animal protection clubs ( more than in child protection clubs ! ), All these people together are potential voters for the political parties, they do have a lot of power, our animal welfare act is very rigorous, becoming more and more rigid every year. "Animal abuse" more important  than "child abuse", people willing to make donations for animal shelters but not for children´s homes. Germany is "leading" in fighting against pollution, ozone...maybe we need to show the whole world that we really belong to the good ones, I don´t know - kind of collective guilt. 2. Thanks to the EU we are forced to follow European rules, the animal laws we didn´t "invent" by ourselves for sure are invented by another country... Politicians are looking for voters - they want to be seen as big-hearted, pet-loving, savior of the world...

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by Kevin Nance on 05 February 2014 - 23:02	Kevin Nance Posts: 195 Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 05:22 am
Susie, We have the exact same "issues" here. Just not nearly so "advanced" depending upon which community a resident resides. But, we too will eventually lose and the "100 year culture" you alluded to will die or be significantly altered. Until then, I will train, fight to retain this culture as long as possible, and enjoy.... Warmest regards to you, Kevin Nance

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by SummertimeGSD on 06 February 2014 - 01:02	SummertimeGSD Posts: 78 Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 08:33 pm
Agreed, we are fighting similar battles here, but many are turning a blind eye and the funding is behind the animal rights activists.  The people fighting for animal rights in the US are not focusing on sports, they are trying to shut down breeders.  They make buying a dog feel like a shameful act because the culturally acceptable thing now is to "adopt" a shelter pet.  They run ads on the TV portraying sad, scared, "abused" animals asking you to please, stand up and pledge your monthly contribution.  They are imposing large registration fees for intact dogs, kennel licensing and inspection even if you have just a few house dogs that you may occasionally breed, pushing mandatory spay/neuter laws, breed bans, etc.

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by vk4gsd on 06 February 2014 - 06:02	vk4gsd Posts: 1504 Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:42 am
oh whats the big deal, the vast majority of GSD are bred and sold as pets so this development will not even be noticed. secondly even the schutshund crowd proclaim that the stick hits do not hurt the dog and they are conditioned into it incrementally so by their own logic if it has no effect on the dog then it follows it will also have no effect if it did not occur. let this be an opportunity to replace the no effect stick (apearance/simulated pain) hits, with some things that actually WOULD improve the breed addressing the two biggest problems facing the breed - ie drop the pointless stick hits and add; 1. an endurance test 2. major unrehearsed environmental stressors in either the bite-work or the obedience. could include solid obstacles make the sport more interesting to watch, cos nobody does now and actually be a more legitimate breed test adressing the two biggest problems; inferior structure and inferior nerves.  the AR crowd would approve as it appears less macho and the breed would improve. the schuts crowd just won't listen cos they are the schuts crowd and they would rather be extinct than evolve, so lets help them either way.

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by Hundmutter on 06 February 2014 - 10:02	Hundmutter Posts: 3464 Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 08:43 pm
Can't help feeling vk4 is largely right on this.  Anyhoo, I asked Jim Engel to post the origin of his declaration that sticks would be banished from the FCI's trials but he has failed to do so, preferring simply to link the oage of his own book that refers - still with no source. He is not the only person to raise this issue over the last year or two.  But nobody else has said where it arose either.  People just seem to accept it as 100% true. Now - I am sceptical, for three reasons: 1   this may not be a permanent ban.  As Susie has pointed out, in the next international competition, in Switzerland, the stick has to be dropped to comply with the local Law. 2   as a Brit I do not fully understand the relationship Sports-W/D people in the States have with the FCI.  To Europeans, the FCI is (as someone else points out above)  a SHOWDOG organisation; it has never overly concerned itself with Trials for GSD,  Shutzhund  / IPO.  It organises Mondior and supports the French in Ring, but does not list any Protection Phase amongst those Trials that it does put on, (mostly for Gundogs, Scenthounds and Dachshunds !.) In the UK, IPO is conducted according to SV Rules.  [But we have the same problem of 'the baby & the bath water' in re. animal rights/welfare that the Germans have]. 3  I have again surfed around the appropriate websites, including FCI, SV and USCA, and cannot find a single piece of 'news' about a rule- change involving the use of stick-hits. ???

 

Schutzhund is Over in Europe by johan77 on 06 February 2014 - 10:02	johan77 Posts: 248 Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 09:46 am
But have there been a vote about stickhits in this years championship, or is this just a decision made by a few people? If they are going to change the rules in IPO and remove stickhits in the future, who will vote about this and is it likely this will pass, do the majority of GSD people in germany want stick hits removed anyway? I guess there is a difference if there is a law made against it, like for certain collars, but are politicans in germany really concerned about stickhits or is it the people in dogorganizations themselves who pushes for this? As far as I know, only switzerland don´t allow stickhits, in other EU countries this is not so contreversial yet apprantly, so it´s strange all other adapt to one nations law, especially since stickhits are just a harmless thing that is not about hurting a dog in any way, you would think lawmakers also will realize this if someone explained it to them, unless they want to ban bitesports for all people that is.

I have two points of disagreement with vk4gsd most recent post.

"the stick hits do not hurt the dog and they are conditioned into it incrementally so by their own logic if it has no effect on the dog then it follows it will also have no effect if it did not occur."
There are dogs with weak nerve that cannot be conditioned to accept stick threat and/or stick hits under trial conditions.
vk4gsd also wrote regarding the discontinuing of stick hits:

"the AR crowd would approve as it appears less macho "
The AR crowd is not interested in merely removing stick hits from dog sport.  It was naive to think the BH requirement would satisfy the AR crowd.  It is naive to think that requiring more control in protection work will satisfy the AR crowd.  It is naive to think that banning pinch collars and e-collars will satisfy the AR crowd.  It is naive to think that removing stick hits will satisfy the AR crowd.  The AR crowd seeks to abolish pet ownership.  That is their goal.  They are content to carry out a war of attrition, seeking their ultimate goal step by methodical step.  They will pick a battle that they think they can win by persuading the general public that it is reasonable.  Once that battle is won, they will pick their next battle.  But they will not stop with their war of attrition until they have reached their goal: no pet ownership.
 

Susie tells us that getting rid of the wall for the A frame
was a good thing, that it was too hard for the German
Shepherds.

It does not seem to be a problem for the Malinois

Jim, I agree that it's mainly a problem due to the changes in the GSD's structure. The showline dogs are now so big and heavy that they can't do it. The overangulation doesn't help, either. Even Jimmy Moses confessed most of the American show dogs wouldn't be capable of jumping over the little fences they have around the show rings! And now the Germans are following suit with angulation, probably in hopes of replacing the American show dog, and increasing their breeding revenues!

Old-style GSD, circa 1910. No problems with jumping back then!



40 years later, the 1955 Sieger, Alf von Nordfelsen. Longer back, more angulation, but still light enough to be agile .





1987 Sieger, Jeck v. Noricum. A dramatic change in just 32 years!



 

Gunther
I would like to buy you lunch.

For all of those that do not think the the stick hits are a necessary tool, are missing the point. The 'Trial"  should be a test of the dog. The helper should not abuse the dog but he should try to chase the dog off of the field and the solid stick hits is part of it. Breed better dog not weaker helpers. But that is not going to happen.

PITA= People Eating Tasty Animals.
If we don't fight back we will be eating Tofu.
 

Gunther, excellent post.
An example of AR winning by attrition to eliminate pets, just look how many pound/rescue dogs are being transported from south to north and from off shore countries to USA because of a "shortage" of "adoption" puppies and dogs due to SPAY/NEUTER laws. The AR advocates are creating a shortage of dogs in shelters for the very people who also embrace laws against breeding dogs or allowing any puppy to remain intact.

When one of my friends wanted to get a puppy from the pound for her daughter, it took SIX MONTHS to find a suitable dog. The dog they finally settled for was nearly a year old!

Yup, spay/neuter has definitley drastically reduced the number of young dogs available for adoption. I went to the shelter with her once, and all the available dogs were older and large to VERY large. The only one that had a reasonably calm temperament was a rottie, and of course, that was NOT a breed she was interested in!