The end of Schutzhund - Page 2

Smiley, you may have good idea here...................NOT. Look, weak dogs should not pass. Period. And the stick hits have been softened already so any dog who can't take them deserves to fail. On the other side, a lot of dogs are brought up getting them used to the stick, desensitizing them from the time they are little puppies. Then those dogs have to trial under the helper they trained with. So in reality, with many dogs, the stick hits don't have much to do with proving a strong dog. IPO is not a test, it is a sport....from puppy hood, they are "trained" for the "sport". That doesn't mean that good sport dogs are not good breeding candidates.....it also doesn't mean a breeding candidate must be a sport dog.

Joan..I agree! I was just saying to make the powers that be happy it might be an option! Everyone would know which dogs didn't take stick hits and nobody would breed to them. Then, if nobody is breeding to them they can't sell puppies. I think it would led to eventually all the dogs taking stick hits to save face!!!  The weak dogs would die out on their own...

I didn't know about this until recently as my dog got stick hits and whip hits and I thought it was normal. Although, some dogs on the field could not get either...helper would just pretend to hit with a mean face on.  My dog has had 4 different helpers and it doesn't matter who the helper was and I did not do any "pretraining". I just brought her out on the field. They are what they are from my limited experience!!

as i said on another forum, it will be up to breeders and handlers to properly test dogs for true working ability.  schh/ipo has not been a conclusive
test for a long long time anyway.  it is a sport & gives an indication of a dog's trainability, but it does not provide an adequate environment to test
working ability.  as long as we are honest with ourselves about what schh/ipo is & isn't, it can still be useful.  it can still be a useful in campaigning
dogs that are worthy of breeding.  unfortunately, many more with weak nerves will be titled, but the whelping box will still provide the proof.  people
are just going to have to put forth more effort in testing their own dogs & doing research on dogs they plan to buy.  ultimately, it may be a good
thing for people to stop relying on dog sports to provide proof of breed worthiness.  we'll see.  :)
pjp

Excellent post, Ziegenfarm.

Smiley, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way...the dogs who can't take stick hits are the same ones being saved by the bell. It doesn't matter that people see it, as long as the dog has the desired color and show rating and trots around a ring in the desired manner, the same breeders producing weak nerved dogs will continue and the puppy buyers will continue to fork over the big bucks.

the problem with schh/ipo has always been the performance of routine.  that's why i say it doesnot provide an adequate environment for testing true working ability.  some of the 
dogs (not all) have been trained & conditioned to pass----that is in no way an effective test as it was originally meant to be.  the whole thing is focused around points & titles.  people
have become so indoctrinated by this that they actually believe that titles are proof of breed worthiness.  titles & points are proof of 2 things as far as i can see......trainability on the 
dog's part & training ability on the handler's part..  that is not a test.  weak nerves can be compensated for, conditioning for desired response does not prove breed worthiness.  i 
guess what i am saying, in a nutshell, is that this is not a new problem, but an ongoing one.  if people are convinced that stick hits prove solid nerves, then they will have to do this 
test on their own.  personally, i see it as just another one of those things that a dog can be conditioned to pass (like gun fire) and still does not lend conclusive proof of solid nerve.
pjp

i've said most of what I needed to say before in another thread, so I'll keep it brief

This doesn't matter.  It really doesn't.  Training has gotten so good you can pass all but the worst in these trials anyway, and if more wanted to take more time, at least the lower levels of ring are pretty attainable as well.  ALL the sports are conditioning.  The onus is still on the breeder and buyers to do their homework and be honest about the dogs in front of them.  It's been that way forever and will continue to be that way.  A stick hit in a trial doesn't tell me much.  The first time I smack a dog in training tells me a lot.  We learn a lot about our dogs in training and show we've done the work in a trial.  

It means some dogs will probably not have to be conditioned to stick hits anymore to pass a trial, so what, it doesn't change what they are, or what they were.  Many were conditioned and pampered thru anyway, you think this changes any of that?  Dogs that couldn't heel, bite or track have titles.  It's been that way forever.

The only thing that matters is the honesty of the breeders you use and what YOU demand from your breeders and dogs.  The rest is just internet fodder

In 2015 the FCI Championship wil be in Switserland and in Switserland it is forbidden by law.

 

I see that the world of working dogs has become FCI - WUSV -SV/RSV2000 - dependant. Everybody is stuck inside the box as if there is nothing outside the box. We are to blame for being followers.

Koach

Not going to argue about the sense or nonsense of stick hits - but there might be a difference between "FCI International Championships" and the single countries ( at least by now ).
Stick hits are forbidden in Switzerland for a couple of years now... and in Mondio there are no stick hits at all.