Hip X-rays- then and now-9 yr old male update - Page 1

Ok, just for fun and education....

Here is the old thread: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=423751-what-do-you-guys-think-about-these-hips

Here are the hips at 18mos-ish: 

Here they are at 9


Dog is totally sound, always has been. I just never liked his young ones, I didn't own him then, and now that he's mine on paper (does not live with me), I was curious what they looked like now, ie, how they've worn over the years and whether it was a mistake not to breed him. He's a FANTASTIC dog. 

Wow I'd love to see hips like that on a dog his age!

IMO this dog would not pass OFA or the SV with either xray.

Passing anything wasn't my focus. 

I've been doing something of an informal study over many years to see how certain hip "types" actually holds up over time. I'm curious whether these certain type hips lead to more or less wear and tear, ie, whether certain families have an overall improved prognosis for longterm work than others- I guess sort of like my own tiny zw that I can store in my own tiny brain.  I started wondering about it when someone posted that she'd bred a bunch of OFA excellents, but across the board,  all were terribly arthritic in the hips by 9 years old or so. My thought was "Well, a lot of good that does! I'll take OFA fairs who are jumping fences in their senior years if that's how it goes." I've had a couple dogs related to this dog whose hips I posted, and all are of similar hip conformation, and I know some other breeders who have similarly bred dogs (and keep folders of them) who  all BARELY passed OFA, or did not pass at all, but have been sound well into their senior years with insignificant changes to the joint and zero symptoms of anything amiss. 

This is not a study that can be done overnight, but I'm trying to get all my own and associated (dogs of friends, family, etc.) "old dogs" re-xrayed for a comparison study of "then and now". Then, knowing the lifestyle, diet, etc. hopefully I can learn something more about hip longevity.  I wish more people would do it, too, so we can get a look at the bigger picture. 

Really no ultimate objective here except to get more than a snapshot of a dog's hip health in their youth when making breeding decisions. The more info, the better. Early on, this dog's shallow sockets concerned me, primarily the left. Now, there is some remodeling on the left of the new film, but nothing horrific for 9, and I know no other dog who has worked so hard for most of his life- this was not a pet until the last year or so. What surprised me was that the socket wasn't much worse, and they're still tight. 

Just my nerdy self, analyzing stuff.   

Have a great weekend!

 

Interesting. My question would be "hold up to what?"  What venues are the dogs working in? As someone who does a lot of sport with my dogs, and not just to earn a title but throughout the dogs' life, I definitely want sound, function hips that "hold up" to a lot of training and monthly competition. If I compare my male's hips at 9 years to his prelims or 24 month OFAs and see that they started off great but did show some wear, knowing how active he has been I don't know that it would make me feel that hips showing some wear are worse off than hips that were not as good to begin with and showed less wear, if that makes sense? It is interesting to study but would have to factor in how the dog was worked. I strongly belive that genetics is the biggest factor in hip conformation but also have to believe that a really active sport or working dog may show changes over time.  I have a mutt that has "meh" hips but he's the laziest dog ever, thinks a walk around the block is hard work, and I do not expect his "meh" hips to change much at all and would not use him as an example of supposed "hybrid vigor".

I don't think my point was clear since you bring up factoring in how the dog was worked.  Maybe you didn't see this part: "This is not a study that can be done overnight, but I'm trying to get all my own and associated (dogs of friends, family, etc.) "old dogs" re-xrayed for a comparison study of "then and now". Then, knowing the lifestyle, diet, etc. hopefully I can learn something more about hip longevity.  I wish more people would do it, too, so we can get a look at the bigger picture."

The "holding up" was directly related to my statement that I know no other GSD who has actually been worked in this capacity, continually. No sport. I'd compare him to a stock dog of sorts, I guess, if I had to make a comparison, though even that isn't really the same.  I mean living on the job, multi-purpose herding/catch/guardian dog for everything from mink to coyotes, elk & bison. Lots of high speed chases, jumping, climbing, covering acres of different terrain and obstacles in all weather. No breaks until year before last. Lots of opportunity for injury- he had a few- and very strenuous. Required excellent agility, speed, and endurance. He had a left ACL injury several years ago that was never fixed and that bothers him a tiny bit when he first gets going in the morning, but after a few steps he's fine. 

I just think early hip xrays are only a small part of the picture if breeding for longevity in all aspects, which is a key thing to me. If someone finds it interesting, I'm happy to have shared it; if not, no biggie. 

That is interesting, Jen. I'd be curious to see more comparisons. Too many people focus on what the dogs will be like in their younger years, so it is interesting to see how they hold up over time.

It would be interesting to be able to see more xrays of dogs over 8 years of age compared to earlier evaluations. This dog had subluxation in the first xray, so his follow up wasn't a surprise. However had Jenni not had the original xray we would not have known if the remodeling we see today was the result of the normal aging process or HD. I'm not surprised that he has remained sound. I've seen dogs xray with severe HD that never take a lame step while others with mild HD are quite lame and vice versa. Xrays and dogs don't always coorelate. I have mixed feelings about using a dog with HD in a breeding program; the wost HD I ever bred was from 3 generations of OFA dogs, so using one with HD doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling no matter how good the dog. I've never known a dog of any breed that was so valuable to that breed he or she needed to be bred if its hips would not pass OFA or the SV. It's  tough call sometimes. It just doesn't seem to me to be the right thing to do.

BTW working this dog hard may have contributed to his remaining sound over the years. Had he sat on a couch eating bon bons for most of his life, he may not be sound today. The HD may have contributed to his ACL injury too, same hip. We will never know, but it's interesting stuff anyway.

I know a breeder with many, many years experience (now passed away, unfortunately) who had a very nice male that did not pass OFA. I wish I could remember the exact grade he received, but needless to say, she did not want him in her breeding program, despite all his other good traits.

He suffered an injury, and had to have a pelvic x-ray. When the vet showed her the x-ray, the hips were much improved. She had him re-assessed by OFA, and he passed. I think he got a 'fair'.

I forget just why he was x-rayed a third time, but when he was fully mature, around 4 or 5 years old, a third x-ray came back OFA GOOD!

After that, she began to use him fairly frequently in her breeding program.

And Sun what was the outcome of hips from his progeny?


Also keep in mind environment plays a hugh role in HD.  And Jenni was this dog NOT neutered sometime in his life?  Curious.  Wow this is incredibly valuable information for any breeding program;  even dogs that will not be used or bred.  So going back a few years now but our dogs that were OFA good definityely had some arthritic changes in their later years of life;  particularly males.  Not so much the females but males with good hips...  Was always curious about that as to why?  Wished I had re x-rayed some of them and some of their puppies;  not that any one of them had a lot of puppies but a few.  And even with OFA goods we were still at about a 30% ratio with HD. 

Keep up the good work Jenni, kudo's to you...  Nan