How many litters is safe? Age? Difference in geographic beliefs? - Page 1

This topic is intriguing to me for several reasons. Repro specialists have very different feelings on this than average pet owners or show breeders, and it seems like Euro working line breeders have different feelings on it than American show or working line breeders. In breeders' EXPERIENCES, at what age do bitches start having whelping complications? Do you feel it's related to age alone, or number of litters alone, a combination of both? Do you feel some lines have genetics allowing longer breeding careers (ie, longevity and robust health) than others? What factors would make you want to "push the envelope" so to speak with a certain bitch?

This topic has been brought up to me several times over the last year since I said I was retiring Capri. I'm being chastised, mostly by much older, more experienced male breeders, most of them not Americans, who feel I'm being overly emotional and irrational thinking that in the shape she's in, one more litter is going to harm her. The last litter was excellent and I'm being pushed to either repeat it or to breed to a very big name stud because the owner wants a pup from her and that male. She is 6, going to be 7 this Spring. She has never had any whelping complications, nor any still born pups or any pups who didn't thrive after birth. The likelihood of finding a bitch who will produce better than Capri on a consistent basis is not great. I've had others, bought others, tested others...they don't measure up.

Above are the arguments they're using to try to convince me to breed her one last time. I'm unconvinced! I'm scared for her; I'm afraid to tempt fate, to jinx my good luck, and I feel like I'm being greedy in one way, but selfish in another. I know the reasons given are sound and logical. It's just hard to be sound and logical when I'm concerned about her health and well-being and know I would never forgive myself if something happened to her because I decided to push the envelope for that one last litter and didn't "quit while I was ahead". One guy used to call me several times per week and try to wear me down. I've been strong. 

Sooo...am I being irrational saying "No, she's retired", over and over again? In the experiences of those who have pushed the envelope in number of litters and age, how did it go? Would you do it again or did you regret it? I'm not ashamed to say I love the dog and may very well be putting her personal safety before "the good of the breed" or whatever they're trying to convince me of, but she's MY DOG. I stress every time she has pups until they're all born and safe and I know she's fine. I don't think I could handle it again, even if she could, worrying about what might go wrong because she's no spring chicken and has had multiple litters already. But, I'm a curious sort and I love a good debate, and these conversations have piqued my curiosity. I'd love to hear others' experiences and philosophies on the matter. 

I wouldn't breed past 7. Just my feelings on the issue. How many litters has she already had?

I've kind of wondered....do breeders stop breeding at a certain age for a reason based on that dog (dog is too old, more likely to have complications...), or is it more because by that time they have a new generation ready to breed?  Perhaps that female's daughter is now 2+ years old, titled, and showing promise?  I know of a few litters bred when the bitch was 9-10 years old and in these cases I believe it was because of THAT bitch, not a function of which bitches were available and then defaulting to breeding the younger one.

VK, wondering the same thing, pretty much. I'm curious the reasons "why" or "why not."  I cannot imagine a reason good enough to put a 10+yr old bitch through a pregnancy, but I know it's done and I won't judge- I just personally get too attached to risk it. 

GSD, she's not 7 yet. End of March. She had 5 and was retired at 5. She cycles 3x per year, so that changed the game a bit. 

I'm mostly interested in the practical outcomes and reasons why people did or did not. I've heard so many differing arguments that I'm really curious at this point. I expected people to think "finally" when I said I'd retired her, not "What'd you do that for?!". 

Several ways to look at it Jenn. I believe a dog always should be bred when they are at their peak of health and vitality. but at the same time if a female has been healthy and had other litters she should have no problem at say 7 yrs. But saying that if she is a great producing female she should have reproduced better than she was. I would be more excited about breeding her offsprings. Breeding should in my opinion be based on long term goal, and a single mating is only one step in the road.
Hank

See, Hank, that's part of my arugment- I have some lovely daughters and sons, from under 2- almost 5 years old, and a few very promising grandpups as well. She's certainly not a dead-end road or an untapped line. The opposing argument (the argument for breeding her again) is for linebreeding down the road and bringing in a different line on the grand and great-grandpups, since she was a strong producer and her daughters produced like her, ie, trying to solidify a strong dam line. She would turn 7 right about when the pups were due to be born. I feel I have what I "need" though a repeat of one litter in which we were short on girls would be ideal. I firmly believe in breeding on females. 

I may be over-emotionalizing, but I don't think "just because I can" is enough reason to breed her again. I was really surprised at the resistance I got to retiring her (of course I still have the local, young vets gasping when they find out she's had 5 litters and can still walk unassisted, LOL).

 

My take is if you want to breed her then breed her don't let us talk you into it or out of it.  You sound like you really want to breed her and that is fine but it also seems a little like a litter announcement. IMHO.

Yes I understand what you are saying. There are 2 particular lines (or I call families) that are my preference. While there are hundreds of dogs if not thousands that have some of the same dogs in the pedigree. They for the most part are not even similar. Due to selection of mating pairs. So sometimes it is not about the numbers as much as selection of mating pairs. If you are fortunate you will have different matings made from Capris' offsprings. Some may be made that are very good, probably some not so good. But if you get 2 or 3 good matings that you have access to later you will be in good shape for years.

That is why in my opinion people that just breed according to lines on a pedigree is in percentage a poor way to breed. If the dog is not representative of the line. Will it show up yes, but not very consistent. You have researched your dogs I know enough that you know what are their long suit. The trip will be to find some one who have been making good selection of mating pairs from the same family that are representative of Capri and they can go on for many years.

That is another reason to not get hung up on a particular breeder or (best, Top, breeder) it is all about who is producing the best offsprings on a particular line or mating . Regardless of who breeds them. Its not about the person but all about the dogs. I know I am probably OT but you will be fine if you breed her again or just trust in what she has produced or find that other person making good matings on the same linage.

Hank
 

Really, Admin?  Ok, here's my litter announcement "V Capri vom Hagenberg was bred to V Boy von Zorra for a litter due July 2012. This will be Capri's last litter."  I retired Capri AT 5 YEARS OLD, in JULY OF 2012.  I'm pretty direct, in case no one had noticed. I do what I feel is right whether other people like it or not. If I decided to breed her again, I certainly wouldn't ask the board's permission. But that wasn't the point of this, it was just the segue and what got me thinking, wondering how my thinking compares to others' and whether this is something that a lot of people do.  

 I'm merely curious about others' experiences, from a philosophical, practical, as well as educational standpoint, since I'm getting more than just a small handful of people chastising me for it, acting like I was foolish and shortsighted for doing it in the absence of a medical reason not to.  Her repro vet flat out told me I was nuts when I told her that litter was her last. Her thinking is that age and numbers of litter are only a tiny piece of the pie and that overall condition and whelping habits are far more telling as to when to quit. But I digress.

I find it interesting. Forgive me for trying to spark some conversation of any depth on here instead of endless drama and hatefulness. I guess this just isn't the place to find longtime experienced breeders who would maybe enjoy this type discussion anymore. I think there are still some here; they just don't want to post. 

Hank, I thank you for your input. I've already been on the lookout for a similarly bred female to cross back into what I already have.  Lies, thanks for your response, too. 

Jen,

Lol, I would breed her especially if an outstanding male was available.

Don't take what I said so personally, it just seems (reading between the lines) you want to breed her one more time. She isn't to old and I don't consider it to be over breeding her.