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by Jenni78 on 28 January 2014 - 17:01
No, but lots of people can't handle a normal GSD, either. I had someone ask me for a dog that wouldn't bite under any circumstances. They wanted a "safe" dog out of parents were went "taught to be mean." 
Hence, my comment about people happier to sue people than take personal responsibility and exercise any common sense when handling a dog. Paul wants uber-nasty. I was just saying good luck- my dogs are quite close to the standard (but they'll bite if it's warranted!) and there are those who can't or don't want to handle them, let alone a truly nasty, anti-social dog.
Hence, my comment about people happier to sue people than take personal responsibility and exercise any common sense when handling a dog. Paul wants uber-nasty. I was just saying good luck- my dogs are quite close to the standard (but they'll bite if it's warranted!) and there are those who can't or don't want to handle them, let alone a truly nasty, anti-social dog.
by kitkat3478 on 28 January 2014 - 17:01
That description pretty much sums up the ideal police dog...Ideal German Shepherd actually.
I thought that was what we were all striving to produce!
Anything beyond that, should be taught. And really, is it that hard to find a German Shepherd that will bite, WHEN and IF encouraged to do so?
I thought that was what we were all striving to produce!
Anything beyond that, should be taught. And really, is it that hard to find a German Shepherd that will bite, WHEN and IF encouraged to do so?
by johan77 on 30 January 2014 - 20:01
The original question is a matter of quantity/quality, real facts like healthdata and number of dogs titled or in service, also personal knowledge about everything that don´t are on records so to speak. So there are more than a few to mention but I say kennel kurant for 50 years as a breeder, and also kustmarken who fulfill many of the points you stated, but obviously there are more around the world.
by Smiley on 30 January 2014 - 21:01
Paul,
I don't think the kind of dog you want displays true German Shepherd temperament. The dog you want, in my eyes, is incorrect for the breed standard. I would not encourage anyone to breed dogs that were not proper breed standard. I think the German Shepherd should be a balanced dog. I do not think we should ever breed for the extreme of any one trait whether it be high prey drive, viciousness, etc. If you want that type of dog, I certainly hope that people are not breeding for it on purpose.
If you want that type of aggression, I feel you should not ruin the german shepherd to get it.
The German shepherd has been and always will be a balanced dog that can easily switch between tasks due to their stable disposition. They were not and should not be vicious attacking machines that are not stable in all social situations with all social interactions.
But, you are entitled to your own opinion and I can respect your opinion- though do not agree with it in any way shape or form!
To those that encourage this type of dog in support of "real" german shepherds, I do not agree with you either!!
My mom was stationed overseas with her military police husband and they had a military german shepherd. No, he was not a golden, in terms of affection, but if a strange kid ran through their property screaming he would not try to rip the kid's throat out. They could have company over and not have to lock him in a room. But, he did his job and did it well and she slept well at night. Just saying!!
Sarah Minsk
I don't think the kind of dog you want displays true German Shepherd temperament. The dog you want, in my eyes, is incorrect for the breed standard. I would not encourage anyone to breed dogs that were not proper breed standard. I think the German Shepherd should be a balanced dog. I do not think we should ever breed for the extreme of any one trait whether it be high prey drive, viciousness, etc. If you want that type of dog, I certainly hope that people are not breeding for it on purpose.
If you want that type of aggression, I feel you should not ruin the german shepherd to get it.
The German shepherd has been and always will be a balanced dog that can easily switch between tasks due to their stable disposition. They were not and should not be vicious attacking machines that are not stable in all social situations with all social interactions.
But, you are entitled to your own opinion and I can respect your opinion- though do not agree with it in any way shape or form!
To those that encourage this type of dog in support of "real" german shepherds, I do not agree with you either!!
My mom was stationed overseas with her military police husband and they had a military german shepherd. No, he was not a golden, in terms of affection, but if a strange kid ran through their property screaming he would not try to rip the kid's throat out. They could have company over and not have to lock him in a room. But, he did his job and did it well and she slept well at night. Just saying!!
Sarah Minsk
by Paul Garrison on 01 February 2014 - 01:02
Sarah,
I am not looking to breed a whole line of killing machines, but what I am trying to do is put some strength of hardness, aggression and some other things that have been bred out and are being bred out of a ballanced GSD. People are not breeding Schutzhund (protection dog) they are breeding "sport dogs" and "pets. Although I like Sch I have no aspirations to do that anymore. As far as pets go I can make a pet out of any dog I own. I have use, desire and need for a protection dogs. Personal protection, property protection , family protection and a LE dogs from time to time. Each of these types of dogs are different and some are very different. The GSD should be able to do all of these things within the breed. But not every dog or any dog can do all of these things.
About 6 months ago a 5 year old GSD was given to me because he could not handle the dog. I was told the dog was crazy mean unsafe monster of a dog. He bit is owners mom twice and seemed to be uncontrollable. His aggression was off the chart he was very possessive and a high tolerance for pain and would not out ever. In fact he was aggressive over anything he had and tried to bite anyone he could see or smell. I gave him one bite 3 weeks after I got him and saw he didn't need bites, he needed training. Tonight I gave him 4 bites on a untraned helper, completly under control and outs well. High prey good fight and good defence. He was calm around spectators but alert. I put him in the back of my truck and his aggression went back off of the chart, took him back out he was calm and went in and out of drive just as he should. This dog will hurt an intruder, but not for the unexperienced, but very usefull.
I have no use for a social dog, I have a trained one. Your social dog might bite if needed, mine will bite. But mine requires more care and responsibility for others not to get hurt.
I am not looking to breed a whole line of killing machines, but what I am trying to do is put some strength of hardness, aggression and some other things that have been bred out and are being bred out of a ballanced GSD. People are not breeding Schutzhund (protection dog) they are breeding "sport dogs" and "pets. Although I like Sch I have no aspirations to do that anymore. As far as pets go I can make a pet out of any dog I own. I have use, desire and need for a protection dogs. Personal protection, property protection , family protection and a LE dogs from time to time. Each of these types of dogs are different and some are very different. The GSD should be able to do all of these things within the breed. But not every dog or any dog can do all of these things.
About 6 months ago a 5 year old GSD was given to me because he could not handle the dog. I was told the dog was crazy mean unsafe monster of a dog. He bit is owners mom twice and seemed to be uncontrollable. His aggression was off the chart he was very possessive and a high tolerance for pain and would not out ever. In fact he was aggressive over anything he had and tried to bite anyone he could see or smell. I gave him one bite 3 weeks after I got him and saw he didn't need bites, he needed training. Tonight I gave him 4 bites on a untraned helper, completly under control and outs well. High prey good fight and good defence. He was calm around spectators but alert. I put him in the back of my truck and his aggression went back off of the chart, took him back out he was calm and went in and out of drive just as he should. This dog will hurt an intruder, but not for the unexperienced, but very usefull.
I have no use for a social dog, I have a trained one. Your social dog might bite if needed, mine will bite. But mine requires more care and responsibility for others not to get hurt.
by smith on 01 February 2014 - 06:02
I agree with Paul 100%
by Hundmutter on 01 February 2014 - 08:02
While I can see what Paul is getting at, I do feel that a lot of what
he says, and has said, on here would lead people to believe that
what he means he is interested in owning or producing are 'monsters';
and therefore we cannot be surprised at Smiley's reaction. Sarah, I
agree that to proclaim the extreme of temperament as a good thing
is actually a bad thing for the breed as a whole. Maybe the difference
is being in Europe, but I have trouble with believing all the stuff about
how the SV is ruining everything, and how Shutzhund has been watered
down, and the GSD is not expected to be 'real' anymore...
All this when so many Americans are still preferring to import their dogs
rather than breed their own.
Also wanted to say that I agree with Jenni (and Paul's anecdote proves it)
that there are so many people (and always have been, IME) who want a
German Shepherd ... but don't really know how to handle one of the breed.
Trouble is, there are so many breeders both sides of the Pond who will sell
without questions (or offering ongoing help) to such buyers.
he says, and has said, on here would lead people to believe that
what he means he is interested in owning or producing are 'monsters';
and therefore we cannot be surprised at Smiley's reaction. Sarah, I
agree that to proclaim the extreme of temperament as a good thing
is actually a bad thing for the breed as a whole. Maybe the difference
is being in Europe, but I have trouble with believing all the stuff about
how the SV is ruining everything, and how Shutzhund has been watered
down, and the GSD is not expected to be 'real' anymore...
All this when so many Americans are still preferring to import their dogs
rather than breed their own.
Also wanted to say that I agree with Jenni (and Paul's anecdote proves it)
that there are so many people (and always have been, IME) who want a
German Shepherd ... but don't really know how to handle one of the breed.
Trouble is, there are so many breeders both sides of the Pond who will sell
without questions (or offering ongoing help) to such buyers.
by gsdstudent on 01 February 2014 - 12:02
top breeders and pedigrees. Two current threads. I am not looking to debate with Paul G. I only want to open up discussion on both of these subjects. First pertaining to Paul's last note about his current dog as being a good example. It very well sounds like it is! In the right hands. Has anybody noticed that many of the ''problem dogs'' come from an enviroment where the original owner was too lax? They had no control or even fostered a belief in the dog that it was alpha? Second observation from Paul's posts. The Pirry dog has blood which is very popular now. The Grief dog goes back to Urs who is out of the top show dog Quanto W. The other very notable male is Fado K. This male was a drive animal and a drive producer. He was not known for'' harness'' nor his complete father line to Dax T. He [ fado] will produce the LE animal when bred right and then raised correctly. The animals LE wants [ and Paul] are out there, even in the current popular lines.
by Paul Garrison on 01 February 2014 - 16:02
Hundmutter
I completely agree with your assessment and will try to explain myself better in future posts.
gsdstudent
"In the right hands" is exactly right with any dog. But even LE first question these days are "Is he social?" I believe the qualities of Pirry came form the mother line more so then the father, although I really like Greif.
I do not want social. Aloof is as social as I want. When a protection dog is in the car he protects it with warnings (or aggression) same as in the house or yard. Now when we are on a walk or on patrol a "protection dog" should be on alert under control not trying to kill everyone in sight, but he should be willing to bite when needed or told. Look at the standard.
The GSD is to be a balanced dog. Most are not balanced they are all prey. I am here to offer balance. I am not here to start a new breed, just looking to bring back the one we have, because we have lost it. It will take some extreme to bring back the balance.
Example: Pirry vom Elfenschloss.... Back in the early 90's we went to the Austin area to get him KKL buy a German judge. When the judge appraoched he recognized the dog and asked "did that dog from Hurbert?" and then said keep that bastard under control. For the courage test he hit like a hammer bringing the crowd to their feet. He did not pet my dog it is NOT NECESSARY I had Pirry under control.
In the last 3 years I have driven 10's of thousands of miles looking at "hard dogs" and found 1 and he is not near as hard as Pirry. So when I say I want an extreme dog I want a like we had in the 70's that require more skill and temperment to handle but offer more use from the dog for real life protection. No they are not for everyone but there are those that really have a need. In todays world they scare the living crap out of people and that is what you need when your house is being broken into or your life threated.
The GSD should be 2nd best at everything. It takes all kinds of temperments to make that up including pets to junk yoard dogs they all have a use.
I completely agree with your assessment and will try to explain myself better in future posts.
gsdstudent
"In the right hands" is exactly right with any dog. But even LE first question these days are "Is he social?" I believe the qualities of Pirry came form the mother line more so then the father, although I really like Greif.
I do not want social. Aloof is as social as I want. When a protection dog is in the car he protects it with warnings (or aggression) same as in the house or yard. Now when we are on a walk or on patrol a "protection dog" should be on alert under control not trying to kill everyone in sight, but he should be willing to bite when needed or told. Look at the standard.
The GSD is to be a balanced dog. Most are not balanced they are all prey. I am here to offer balance. I am not here to start a new breed, just looking to bring back the one we have, because we have lost it. It will take some extreme to bring back the balance.
Example: Pirry vom Elfenschloss.... Back in the early 90's we went to the Austin area to get him KKL buy a German judge. When the judge appraoched he recognized the dog and asked "did that dog from Hurbert?" and then said keep that bastard under control. For the courage test he hit like a hammer bringing the crowd to their feet. He did not pet my dog it is NOT NECESSARY I had Pirry under control.
In the last 3 years I have driven 10's of thousands of miles looking at "hard dogs" and found 1 and he is not near as hard as Pirry. So when I say I want an extreme dog I want a like we had in the 70's that require more skill and temperment to handle but offer more use from the dog for real life protection. No they are not for everyone but there are those that really have a need. In todays world they scare the living crap out of people and that is what you need when your house is being broken into or your life threated.
The GSD should be 2nd best at everything. It takes all kinds of temperments to make that up including pets to junk yoard dogs they all have a use.
by gsdstudent on 01 February 2014 - 17:02
thank you Paul for understanding my comments and being civil [ no play on words since the dog language uses this word incorrectly] Question 1] Was Pirry bred to? 2] have you kept contact with any offspring? There are many dogs out in the world with similar pedigrees.
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