How do we rule out HD and ED ? - Page 1

Sorry hit that button twice ! I had a nice talk with my Vet the other day. Topic was, how come, that even with the most carefull selection of parentline in regards to HD & ED that it happens that you will still have dogs with HD or ED in that breeding. His imidiate reply was :" If you have 6 pups,1 will be perfect,1 will be crap and the rest will be soso !" I thought, wow, this really makes him go....and he continued : " Aslong as we only submit to the registry, what we think will pass, we will not get this problem solved. I am in this since over 25 years, and the numbers are nearby identical. The only way i see, to solve it,is, that it is made mandotory to have ALL pups born are x-rayed AND submitted to the registry. After a couples of years we would have an acurate profile that would serve the porpose to rule the lines out where HD & ED is manifestet." What do you think ? Kind Regards Ulli Dresbach

How much of Dysplasia can be attributed to environmental causes? I've heard various people say nurture rather than nature may be more than 70% responsible, but I am not sure what they base this on. You can bet this is a great topic.

Ulli, I agree 100% with your vet, however, even if every single pup and parent was x-rayed, we would still have pups born who were dysplastic because it is a genetic thing. Just like humans who are born with certain malformations or diseases, dogs are too. Until a set of genes is identified which are responsible for this condition, we will never eradicate it. And it is highly likely that it is much more complex than just a set of genes. As you know, there are many things that can affect development in utero. And in my country, people breed and breed anyway, without regard for the most basic of health checks, without regard to whether their dogs are structurally sound or have appropriate temperaments. If they think their dog is good, they breed away. Why? Because it is about money. We cannot even get these people to the table and get them to stop breeding, so how on earth do you think it is possible to get them to x-ray all dogs they breed or bred? It will never happen. Just this morning I got an email from a woman looking for a pup. Only after I got a second email did I find out she wanted to breed it. She wants to breed it to her son's dog, and has so little information about what is and is not a breed worthy dog that she was asking about a dog I have for sale who is long coated! She knows nothing about the breed, and wants to breed a litter so she can have a pet! And she will sell the other pups for some money. Every dog I own is x-rayed and every dog I have ever bred was x-rayed, even those who were later spayed and neutered as pets. But most people simply will not do this and the dog registries like AKC will not press for more requirements such as mandatory x-ray standards. So, in my opinion, it will be a cold day in hell before HD and ED or most genetic issues are elimated from the breed.

Sueincc, What you mention is also part of the problem. Purely speaking, dysplasia is a genetic condition, but yes, in some instances, how a dog is raised, exercised, fed, kept too heavy, etc. etc., can and does lead to arthritic/dysplastic changes. None the less, short of an acute injury, genetics plays the biggest role at the very foundation, as it predisposes dogs to problems whose environmental situation contributes factors that assist in developing the conditions coded for in the genes to begin with.

Hodie, you are making good points. Even SV tells us, genetic HD & ED are a 20-30% contrubution, the rest would be upbringing, nutrition and care for the animal. I think,20-30 % is to low. I agree with you that we cannot rule it out intirely. But lets assume, one searches fo¿r a sire to mate his bitch to. He searches,checks pedigrees and spents a lot of time. Now he finds a sire, HD & ED are a1 aswell as in the ancesters of this male. His female has just the same. He make sthis breeding in high hopes and has 5 pups. From these 5 pups there are 3 dysplastic after 1 years time ! The guy come to find out that 3 siblings of the sire used are dysplastic, he just was not able to find information on them beforehand ! Wouldnt it be nice to have the info on ALL dogs ? Yes i agree, peopel are ignorant, and if they like the neighbours poodledoodle they will mate them ! But would it not be a start ? Ulli

Hopefully someday the genes that determine the development of these diseases (and others) will be identified. Once that happens, breeding stock can be tested. Then, as usual, it is up to breeders to use that information in an ethical manner when selecting breeding stock. There's a chance that there will not be a gene or genes that will indicate which dogs are "carriers" of HD; instead they may indicate which dog are lacking the ability to supress that development in utero. It may be that the expression of HD is all about modifiers genes and their level of expression, not about the inheritance of HD itself as a single entity. This is far into the future I think and will take a lot of money. OFA statistics indicate that the breeds with the most OFA excellents have the least HD. Since they only see the xrays the owners feel will pass, that information may be skewed. It just makes good sense to try to have a strong background of good to excellent hips behind breeding stock. I myself do not believe that the development of HD is strongly influenced by the environment. Some breeders keep entire litters or multiple puppies, raise them in the same environment, feed them the saem food. Some can develop normal hips, some not. IMO, a poor environment can add to the problem, but it's not going to cause a puppy genetically programmed for good hips to develope HD. Some of my friends in other breeds sell all their puppies with the understanding they will have their hips xrayed before they are 1 year old. Some owners do that when the dogs are neutered and some breeders refund the price of the xray. It's easier to keep track of the puppies that are sold as breeding prospects since they will most likely be xrayed at some point. The pets are harder and require an extra effort by the breeder, but it can be done.

Hello Ulli! Long time no hear. We talk about this a lot, but it always must be repeated as it still out there and there are still too many affected dogs. But you know as most of us do that until we do one (1) of two (2) things: First, x-ray all siblings of a potential breeding dog/bitch, plus the siblings of their parents to obtain the best idea. Second, identify the exact genetic combination that causes the high possibility of hip dysplasie and avoid those genes. The first idea is the easy one that we could do now if everyone would x-ray their dogs, and I know that it is possible only if a breeder keeps all of the puppies until they are x-rayed or makes special concessions. The second one may take many years and never be perfect, as one would have to wait until a puppy is born to test it for the presence and combination of the bad genes. I disagree with the S.V.'s stated ratio, and think it should be reversed. But that is a different thread for another day. Anyway Ulli, it's good to hear from you. Good Thread. Bob-O

Ulli and Blitzen, I agree with your posts 100%. And I do insist on x-rays from every dog in every litter period, and I pay for it. That way I know what I am producing. Ulli, you are correct that one can only make the best judgements they can given the lack of information available. So scenarios as you mention are always possible and indeed, happen all the time. I am talking however about people breeding who do nothing to check, and even worse, some who know they are producing dysplastic dogs or dogs with other problems, who know about it, but continue to breed the same dogs. Happens all the time. Sad, but until there are more ethical breeders who all ascribe to the same set of ethics, nothing will change. The OFA information and that of the SV is the best we have, but one can be sure that it is skewed because it is only partial data. Only breeders who look beyond their noses and are not doing this for money will take the time and make the effort to search out information on as many close relatives of the dogs they are breeding and then choose NOT to breed those who have a high chance of producing problem hips, elbows, EPI, pannus or other known conditions. For people who are routinely breeding dogs young, all too often some of these conditions do not show themselves and a given dog or pair of dogs have had multiple litters before the condition shows up. But with serious dysplasia, breeders could make better choices if they wanted to. They don't. They want the money. Pure and simple.

I think requireing all offspring to be x-rayed and published ratings would be a great thing. I'm getting tired off the "we're in America, we don't have to follow the SV" The same people complain over health and temperament issues.