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by WorkingGirl3 on 06 January 2014 - 19:01
Okay, so I know all about German Shepherds, but I am new to the world of Dutch Shepherds. I have an excellent Dutch that I would love to title in sport. He is currently working for me as a narcotic detection dog and a personal protection/patrol dog. He excels at both as well as being a great family member. If he does well and gets some official titles I would like to breed him. The question I have is, I am not a breeder, and I HATE bad breeders. I do not believe in breeding dogs that are not purebred and registered and generally excellent dogs. However, as I have been learning there are lots of great Dutch Shepherds out there that are being bred without registration as an FCI dog is rare. Is it okay to breed a Dutch that isn't registered? Is there something I can do to register him? He was imported from Holland as a pup, I am his third owner and have no idea what is pedigree is. Does this even make sense? Or am I off my rocker? Please help, any information to help me better educate myself is very much appreciated. He is really an excellent dog with a rock solid temperament and work ethic, I would love to see him contribute to the breed. I am struggling to understand this KNPV and FCI registration stuff. Thank you in advance.
by Hundmutter on 07 January 2014 - 07:01
WorkingGirl3, d'you mind if we take this all back to "Square 1" for a minute ?
Your post shows your confusion. :)
For starters: dogs are not registered with the FCI. They are registered with the
Kennel Club of their own country. The FCI is an overview organisation, running
European Showing to co-ordinate Breed Standards, Judging, Awards etc, for
countries where there are insufficient infrastructures to do it all for themselves.
While they deal with a merged Stud Book for those countries which make up the
FCI's membership, they do not run any Breed Registry, as far as I have ever heard
or can work out from their website. Some clubs / countries outside of Europe adopt
FCI competition rules.
You don't say whether you are in Europe, or the States ?
If you own a Dutch Shepherd which was registered as a puppy with the Kennel
Club of the country you and the dog are living in, that clearly simplifies matters
when you want to breed from your dog, record its Titles, Show wins etc. If it was
never registered, you still may have some choices: some countries, eg the UK,
have a separate Register kept by their Kennel Club for working dogs - i.e. those
active and competing in any of the dog sports & disciplines, other than Showlines.
Dogs can usually be entered on that registry at any time/age, and need not be pure
-bred. You don't need to know details of its parentage. But for precise details, you'd
have to ask your country's Kennel Club, I only know how to get on to the English one.
Alternatively, if you have a dog without papers, because it never got registered in its
country of birth, sometimes you can have it declared a valid purebred specimen of
its breed; if you can do that, you can register it as an adult under some of the
Kennel Clubs' Rules. You would need to enquire further of the Club(s) concerned.
They may vary in their ability to provide these services and their requirements (e.g.
whether you need to know who both parents were, whether it needs to be seen by a
Judge, or three, etc.)
Written Pedigrees are a separate issue. Some of these tell you next to nothing.
While I absolutely admire your attitude to not breeding if people can't do it properly,
there is actually no reason you cannot produce good specimens by breeding cross-
bred or unregistered stock. The strength of 'good breeding' is in making sure you
find both a dog and a bitch to breed with who are the best you can find for what you
want to produce, and who complement each other; ensuring that you have all the
time and space and attitude to do it properly; in being prepared to do all the
relevant health testing for the breed(s); in making as certain as you can that any
pups you produce will not be carrying faults (that is easier when there is paperwork, but
not impossible without it); and with being prepared to only let your pups go to people
who will care properly for them, with you remaining as honest and fair as possible in your
dealings with your customers. The situation with 'working' Malinois, Mali-mixes and
Dutchies actually quite lends itself to non-registered but careful breeding, at present.
But you do need to keep in mind the difficulties unregistered breeding can leave later
generations of owners with, in the future. You can help by keeping meticulous records
of your own breedings, also using tools like microchipping / tattooing for identification.
To have actual Titles, Show places, Grading, Korung/Breed Survey etc on your dogs
isn't "everything" ['though it is bloody nice to have them !]. Let's face it, some breeders
who do everything 'right' with registered stock can still get it very wrong !
KNPV is a sport / test, which may have a separate record of dogs working within it (and
their titles, and their ancestry) but you would need to ask someone more knowledgeable
in running that, either in Holland or elsewhere, I cannot tell you any more about it. There
are members here, currently posting on the KNPV thred, who I advise you to contact for
more information.
Your post shows your confusion. :)
For starters: dogs are not registered with the FCI. They are registered with the
Kennel Club of their own country. The FCI is an overview organisation, running
European Showing to co-ordinate Breed Standards, Judging, Awards etc, for
countries where there are insufficient infrastructures to do it all for themselves.
While they deal with a merged Stud Book for those countries which make up the
FCI's membership, they do not run any Breed Registry, as far as I have ever heard
or can work out from their website. Some clubs / countries outside of Europe adopt
FCI competition rules.
You don't say whether you are in Europe, or the States ?
If you own a Dutch Shepherd which was registered as a puppy with the Kennel
Club of the country you and the dog are living in, that clearly simplifies matters
when you want to breed from your dog, record its Titles, Show wins etc. If it was
never registered, you still may have some choices: some countries, eg the UK,
have a separate Register kept by their Kennel Club for working dogs - i.e. those
active and competing in any of the dog sports & disciplines, other than Showlines.
Dogs can usually be entered on that registry at any time/age, and need not be pure
-bred. You don't need to know details of its parentage. But for precise details, you'd
have to ask your country's Kennel Club, I only know how to get on to the English one.
Alternatively, if you have a dog without papers, because it never got registered in its
country of birth, sometimes you can have it declared a valid purebred specimen of
its breed; if you can do that, you can register it as an adult under some of the
Kennel Clubs' Rules. You would need to enquire further of the Club(s) concerned.
They may vary in their ability to provide these services and their requirements (e.g.
whether you need to know who both parents were, whether it needs to be seen by a
Judge, or three, etc.)
Written Pedigrees are a separate issue. Some of these tell you next to nothing.
While I absolutely admire your attitude to not breeding if people can't do it properly,
there is actually no reason you cannot produce good specimens by breeding cross-
bred or unregistered stock. The strength of 'good breeding' is in making sure you
find both a dog and a bitch to breed with who are the best you can find for what you
want to produce, and who complement each other; ensuring that you have all the
time and space and attitude to do it properly; in being prepared to do all the
relevant health testing for the breed(s); in making as certain as you can that any
pups you produce will not be carrying faults (that is easier when there is paperwork, but
not impossible without it); and with being prepared to only let your pups go to people
who will care properly for them, with you remaining as honest and fair as possible in your
dealings with your customers. The situation with 'working' Malinois, Mali-mixes and
Dutchies actually quite lends itself to non-registered but careful breeding, at present.
But you do need to keep in mind the difficulties unregistered breeding can leave later
generations of owners with, in the future. You can help by keeping meticulous records
of your own breedings, also using tools like microchipping / tattooing for identification.
To have actual Titles, Show places, Grading, Korung/Breed Survey etc on your dogs
isn't "everything" ['though it is bloody nice to have them !]. Let's face it, some breeders
who do everything 'right' with registered stock can still get it very wrong !
KNPV is a sport / test, which may have a separate record of dogs working within it (and
their titles, and their ancestry) but you would need to ask someone more knowledgeable
in running that, either in Holland or elsewhere, I cannot tell you any more about it. There
are members here, currently posting on the KNPV thred, who I advise you to contact for
more information.
by BlackMalinois on 07 January 2014 - 08:01
Working girl have the dog a chip,or immunizationd blue book from the vet maybe there you can find chip number or BRN number
name dog or parents. Do you know where the dog coming from in Holland owners?
Not FCI pedigreed Dutchies most are coming from KNPV bloodlines
downstairs on the page also in english
http://www.bloedlijnen.nl
by apple on 07 January 2014 - 11:01
What does being registered have to do with the dog's working ability?
by Hundmutter on 07 January 2014 - 13:01
Not a lot, apple, just some of us like to keep a Breed a Breed,
and not a 'mutt'; knowing ancestry can give you a lot of insight
when it comes to abilities, health, and other useful info, that you
do not usually or easily get with unpapered dogs. Like I said to
the OP, she has the choice, she does not HAVE to go for pure-bred
registered stock ...
and not a 'mutt'; knowing ancestry can give you a lot of insight
when it comes to abilities, health, and other useful info, that you
do not usually or easily get with unpapered dogs. Like I said to
the OP, she has the choice, she does not HAVE to go for pure-bred
registered stock ...
by apple on 07 January 2014 - 13:01
I think you alluded to this in your other post Hundmutter, and that is that non FCI KNPV Mals and DS's are technically mutts, yet are some of the best working dogs in the world. I see no proven value in registered dogs the way things are.
by Hundmutter on 07 January 2014 - 14:01
Well clearly you don't, apple, - but a lot of people do; who is to say which is 'right' ?
We would not have the recognisable 'breeds' to sacrifice / muck about with
at all, if the [mostly 19th century] fad for formalising breeding and registration
methods had never existed.
I am simply answering the OP's question within her own terms.
We would not have the recognisable 'breeds' to sacrifice / muck about with
at all, if the [mostly 19th century] fad for formalising breeding and registration
methods had never existed.
I am simply answering the OP's question within her own terms.
by apple on 07 January 2014 - 15:01
I say I'm right. Just look at all the AKC registered breeds and how they have moved away from their original function. Then compare any working dog and compare the intensity and effectiveness it does its job with, to the intensity and effectiveness of unregistered KNPV dogs. I say the AKC and the SV have done much more harm than good.
by Hired Dog on 07 January 2014 - 15:01
When it comes to working dogs, looks or papers account for nothing, its the working ability that matters. The dog can have 3 ears and 8.4 tails, as long as it can do its job, its all that matters.
When it comes to breeding, serious breeders of those KNPV and NVBK dogs could also care less about papers, but, they do know the pedigrees they deal with. A dog, no matter what titles or registries it has, needs to be bred in order to see what it can produce, first, if its even capable of it, and if that is so, again, papers be damned. Apple, you are correct.
When it comes to breeding, serious breeders of those KNPV and NVBK dogs could also care less about papers, but, they do know the pedigrees they deal with. A dog, no matter what titles or registries it has, needs to be bred in order to see what it can produce, first, if its even capable of it, and if that is so, again, papers be damned. Apple, you are correct.
by Hundmutter on 07 January 2014 - 16:01
Okay WorkingGirl, you heard the sports fanatics. They are right and everyone
who thinks there is any value in keeping dogs to their recognised Standards,
for whatever reason, is wrong. So yes you must be "off your rocker" in their
eyes, though they don't seem to have courage to tell you so straight !
Would have been nice, though, if either Apple or HiredDog had offered you
any practical help at all ...
Don't worry, lots of threds with questions like yours get derailed by the only-working-
matters brigade, they'd just rather stir it up than anything else. Must be cold outside,
or they would be off training their dogs.
who thinks there is any value in keeping dogs to their recognised Standards,
for whatever reason, is wrong. So yes you must be "off your rocker" in their
eyes, though they don't seem to have courage to tell you so straight !
Would have been nice, though, if either Apple or HiredDog had offered you
any practical help at all ...
Don't worry, lots of threds with questions like yours get derailed by the only-working-
matters brigade, they'd just rather stir it up than anything else. Must be cold outside,
or they would be off training their dogs.
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