please explain ? ? ? ? - Page 1

I understand from what i've read that dog's are linebred to bring out the inherent trait's wanted in the lines and that in doing this, trait's not wanted also come thru too. so what i'm tryin to understand is why is it that , i know everyone differs here on opinion, breeders take the risk involved with " linebreeding"?is it really worth it to not only bring what you "do want" knowing that you are going to inadvertantly also get what you"don't want". and isn't linebreeding just fancy speek for inbreeding? please if you can explain this in newbie terms. and correct me here? but once the genes are introduced that you don't want wouldn't it be harder to then breed out these "bad gene" if possible at all? thanks again kenny

Linebreeding or no linebreeding, regardless what breed you breed, first step is to study the two breedlines you are planning to mate. Both, dam and sire have at least over 300 ancestors, that includes the siblings of all mentioned in the pedigree. Get yourself a big table or large board and start laying out the colored chips, different colors for what you want, for what you know is in the line, for what you don't want, for what you want to achieve, for your health risks, your conformation risks, your desired temperament, your desired working ability.....and much more! After about 50 hours or so, some of it may fall into place and things become less "inadvertantly". Unless you have to toss the planned mating out because of your research, after another 50 hours spent on your board, the picture suddenly becomes clear. The goal is to improve with the litter over dam and sire - not much, just an inch and you can call yourself successful. Big steps almost always lead to pitfalls, and no research relies totally on luck which you never will have!

so what is the mating check on here for to tell me if there will be any line breeding in the 5 generations? kinda a poorman's table. i have no idea who put all the work into this mesage board but i'm hooked, i've been checking it for month's now, and atleast for a while i couldn't get it to work although was told that is was being updated. so instead of trying to email and call people, since i'm deployed to iraq, i can get on here and do ALOT of research in considerably less time. i had planned on doing what you have desribed, and my wife thought i was insane, but said i guess if you want to do all that work, and it pays off i guess it's worth it huh. my goals are similar to what you describe, along with bringing More quality dog to the public as well. i'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for, but at some point it becomes clear alot of breeders take it to a whole new level, as i can never fathom paying 15,000+ for a dog that doesn't have any titles or is even show worthy, no matter how well trained they are.I am spending quite a large sum of money for a male and female , both from different lines with each bringing hopefully what i wanted to the table for future pups. but i'm no geniologist, hope that's spelled right, so i figured i'd ask on here if there is something i either didn't understand or just didn't clik on what i've read. thanks all and look forward to more info kenny

KKR Gsd02. The mating check is to show you both of the parents pedigree's on the pups pedigree. For what ever reason my mating check say's there is no line breeding, when my female has line breeding and the father to our pups has one line breeding, so I don't know, maybe I did something wrong, or maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it is for as for as I know. Are you looking at going into show lines or working lines? I also want to say I give you a lot of respect for being in Iraq two times, and for doing all the research that you are on the pedigree's and etc. Kel

If there are no common ancestors in 5 generations, that dog will be considered outcrossed (no linebreeding). Dogs beyond the 5th generation have little, if any influence on the current generation. As an example, the odds are that a simple recessive gene can be bred out of any gene pool in 5 generations. Breeding dogs is always playing the odds, there is no sure way to determine how the genes will pair. GSD breeders have been taught that close linbreeding and even the occasional inbreeding is taboo and like a brother mating with his sister. However, it is an accepted practice in the animal world and is routinely practiced successfully in many other breeds. This is the link to a very good article regarding breeding dogs - http://www.bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html When you really think about it, dogs beyond the 4th generation don't have a whole lot of influence on the current generation either since each of those 16 dogs have only contributed 6.25% of their genes to the current gene pool. Since genes are inherited in pairs, they can only pass on one half of each gene they themselves have inheritied from their parents. And so it goes............ Linebreeding should never be feared by dog breeders that have done their homework. You don't want to double on the undesirable characteristics, but you would want to double on traits your are trying to improve in your own dogs. Also, breeding littermates does not mean you are getting the same gene bank, that will naver happen. You can look at your bitch's litter sister as a clue what your own bitch might produce bred to the same dog or one with a similar pedigree, but no 2 dogs carry the same set of genes unless they are identical twins, very rare in the dog world. Making outcrossed breedings for generation after generation in an attempt to avoid any hint of a linbreeding is not a sound breeding program. It will probably never get any GSD breeder any consistency in type or temperament in the long term.

Correction - I should have said that "each of those 8 dogs (in the 4th generation)have only contributed 12.5% of their genes to the current pool". Sorry.

blitzen , thanks for the explination, as now it makes alot more sense. and as far as i am right now, as breeding goes it's hip's/health, then looks and temperment/ drive. so if i start with 2 gsd's with good hip's i can breed from there for what i think is the "perfect" gsd. hopefully i'm correct in this in that i'm keeping good hips in the lines correct?

As you learn more, KKR, you might find out that it's better to pay a stud fee than to try to accomplish your goals by using your own dog. There's the chance that he might mesh with your bitch and that your first litter will be a great one, but the odds are against that happening, I'm not trying to discourage you from using your own male for the first litter, but you may decide another male might be a better choice the next time. Good hips and elbows are the minimum one needs, but it's the right start. I don't breed GSD's, have bred another working breed for over 35 years. At one time I thought I might like to buy a good bitch and have a litter or 2, but I soon learned that I would want to title any dog before I bred it and I'm far too lazy at my age to do that. So, I have only one GSD, a untitled pet male. I'm sure there are GSD breeders on this board who will be happy to mentor you with good advice regarding what else needs to be done before you breed you dogs. Good luck and I hope they turn out to be everything you are hoping for.

well i really only want 1 litter out of my male, i'm buying him primarily for his protection training. but if i decide he's not what i want with my females traits i'll find a stud with the help of other breeders that fit into what i'm looking to accomplish. from what i've read here i share the want to "better" the breed.

"""is it really worth it to not only bring what you "do want" knowing that you are going to inadvertantly also get what you"don't want". """ You have to remember your are dealing with Genetics here, so the breeder really does not know 100% what he/she will get.... Not every puppy will have the good traits that the breeder is looking for, as well as not all the puppies are going to show the bad traits. When a breeder is doing a breeding line-breeding or total outcross he/she is looking for that one or few puppies that shows what is being looked for. Not the whole litter. At least I am!! Unless they are full of shit and think the whole litter is for the top top top... Then you run run run... :-) Best Regards, Dennis