Question-with stipulations - Page 1

I have questions I am almost afraid to ask but I really want to understand.  IF I CAN GET SOME INPUT THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN A FEW MEMBERS, I would like to know about the titles issue.  I'm not saying certain people shouldn't give opinion just PLEASE don't hijack the thread.

Okay.  GSDs are meant to be a working breed and a family dog, as well, as I understand it. So, it seems like the working owners sometimes minimize the importance of the family dog owners. I don't mean that offensively but it seems like having the dog just for a pet almost makes it seem like a second class shepherd owner.  But, if the owners are, in fact, both equal, in their right to a dog that meets their needs and if there are (I'm assuming) more pet homes than working homes.  And if the reason a lot of the breed is in rescues is because the average pet owner doesn't have the skills to cope with a strong work ethic, self  confident dog. Then, wouldn't it be good to breed really good quality pets?  I mean, it seems like "pet quality" is a dirty word sometimes.  I'm still talking about a very focused, well researched breeding program. Not the "I gotta dog. You gotta dog. Let's let 'em do the nasty and we'll sell the pups." mentality.

Would people here agree that the reason there are so many GSDs in rescue is because they are poorly bred? Would it be the greater good to encourage responsible-RESPONSIBLE-breeding that would make pet quality a specific goal? In the long run would that lessen the number of dogs in shelters or increase it? Remember the word responsible.

I realize the breed was never meant to be only for a family dog. But, then, not only for (protection) working either. Many things have changed, including society itself, and a lot of people have no problem teaching their dogs a job. It just seems that many have no desire to do bitework.  And many jobs for shepherds seem to include no bitework and are still respected (SAR, herding, assistance dogs, etc.). And many who love this breed simply do not want a dog that has the very strong protection work. I know that's not the founder's view but it seems to be the present reality.

So, I guess I need to try to make a coherent question. Would it be unfair to the breed to selectively breed for calm, steady nerves and tolerance for family situations, correct structure (something between show, working structure) and lower drives? And no, I don't mean to turn the breed into Golden Retrievers or to change them as a whole. I just mean as something a little more user friendly than many who end up in shelters. I have a friend who breeds tremendously sweet working line dogs that are certainly more than I feel I could take on now.  And I don't think I am necessarily the exception among amatuers that love German Shepherds.

And I just want to state that I AM NOT IN SUPPORT OF ANY PERSONS VIEWS OR IDEAS IN PARTICULAR.  I just want to know what professional breeders think.  I want to understand why the term "pets" seems so frowned upon. And I am not challenging any statements others may have made. Just want knowledge.

Dawg

I think you have to look at the big picture of all breeds of dogs to get your answer. If GSD's were the only breed with problems I would see it different. Shelters are full of dogs of every breed and type, purebreeds and mutts, pups and old dogs... So many people love a "cute" puppy but once it grows up do not want it anyway for a number of reasons. One big problem is the impulse buying, buying for the wrong reason (example kid wants a puppy). Some buy thinking they will breed and get rich selling pups.. I don't think is has much to do with the quality of GSD's as most pet owners don't even understand the quality level of the GSD anyway.

OK, DR, that makes sense.  I guess, I meant just the GSDs that are in rescue. I certainly didn't mean to infer that there were statistically more GSDs than other breeds.  Maybe I should ask those that work in rescues what were the highest reasons people give up their GSDs.  I assumed it would be that they are clueless about the breed. I know of a LOT of people who would not be suited to owning one.  Mostly it just breaks my heart to know how people oriented they are and to think of them in shelters.  And was trying to figure the underlying reasons.  Maybe, it's just people not researching what to expect.

But, I still don't understand the reason why there seems to be a "just pet quality" kind of implication sometimes.  I hesitate to quote threads where I'm talking about because I don't want to seem to single people out. I may have even misinterpreted those responses. Would it, though, be a bad thing to breed for lower drives with a mind toward pet homes instead of working homes?  Is it fair to say that pets that can be found in shelters are there because of issues (primarily)? Or more likely that they are there because people are mostly schmucks? (No argument here.)

 

Why breed for pets? If you want a pet go to the pound. There are many applications where a high drive dog is required. This is what you breed for. However, in any litter there are some dogs that are not up to snuff, these are the "pet quality" dogs. If we bred for pets, what would the lower quality pups from that litter be called, glue? I breed to produce dogs that are capable of top sport. Dogs that are a little less are perfectly suited for police, personal protection, SAR, or competitive obedience or tracking work. Less than that, make excellent house pets.

"However, in any litter there are some dogs that are not up to snuff, these are the "pet quality" dogs." Agreed...having pet homes for those pups who just don't cut it is perfectly fine. Breeding "for" pet homes and pet people is rediculous, that's why it's frowned upon. This is a working breed for goodness sake. Let's not even 'go there' on breeding the drive out of a breed for sake of making it more marketable for the average dog owner, oh wait, didn't the American show breeders already do that? Pick the breed to suit your need, if you can't handle a properly tempered GSD, get something else. "If you want a pet go to the pound." Agreed!! Lots of rescues out there, take your pick.

Glue. Funny.

I didn't really figure in the many levels of performance in a single litter of pups.  I guess with the talk of breeding goals, etc., it just seemed like there might be a couple that were more than expected and all the rest were mostly what you expected. Not very realistic, I guess, but I've never been a breeder. Probably never will.  My friends dogs are all very intense, I assumed that was the norm but now I realize he wouldn't have held back the low key ones but would have sent them to pet homes. So, that definately makes sense. So, if you breed to a top sport dog, and there are some that are all you hoped with an intensity level of a 9 or 10. What do the pet quality pups end up with for intensity? Is usually lower in intensity or more contained in a different type of drive? Is there a difference in the dominance of the different levels of a litter? Or does that not seem to surface more in one type than another?

And you clarified another question about breedworthiness without bitework. Competitive obedience, tracking.  I didn't understand why only Schutzhund titles seemed to be acceptable.

As far as breeding for pets being frowned upon because it's ridiculous. I knew going into the question that was the concensus. I wanted to know why.  Same to it being a working breed. I knew that which is why I asked about work that involved other than bitework. I wanted to know why. If we can't even "go there" in the sharing of information, what's the point of there BEING information? So that a priveledged few can hoard it and take with them to their graves? Or be rude to people who asked politely? It's just uncalled for

I don't want to be one of those people that own GSDs for years and not know any more than the day I bought the first one. And I'll never be able to go back to any other breed now. I'm hooked. I just don't understand what's so offensive about the pursuit of information. Would you prefer that there be one more ignorant German Shepherd owner out there?

all about the dawgs... Good Questions and good for you for being brave enough to ask !! Good luck with your quest for more information, and good for you for asking what you have to understand the issues at hand. maligator makes a point, Breed for correct Temperament .... Leaves things open to much interpretation, GSD's as you said Dawgs were originally bred for herding sheep and protecting the family as well. So correct behavior within a family environment is a must, However I think I am the only one who beleives this.

Here local we see very few GSD's but do see a few and right now I know they have a Great Dane, couple of boxers and Australian Shepherds plus many others. The big money for most breeders is the pet market, these people buy on looks hence where there is a demand someone will supply. I don't think you can stop people from buying and abandoning dogs. Zahnburg...IMO You have the perfect breeding philsophy for a dog breeder. I agree and always wonder why anyone would breed for anything less?

Zahnburg, perfectly said.