Fear of Dogs in Almost Whole Litter - Page 1

Hello All

I have been doing follow up on a litter of GSD I bred. They are about 4 months now. It was my first litter. The common theme among many of the puppy buyer that I got in touch with is that, 1) the pups are super confident and affectionate but 2) they seem to have a fear of other dogs. I kept a female pup back and saw the same thing. When I took her to the park for socialization, everything was fine until another dog ran up to her. She screamed and ran behind me. But even dogs that were ignoring her she seemed afraid. I took her into the dog park, which I know now is a big no no. She was a little jumpy. But by the end she was fine and running around with the other dogs. The next time I took her, she adjusted much quicker. Just a little hair raising at the entrance and had to be gently pulled in. She is much much better and I can walk her around the park or dog stores and no more fear, but a little unsure when a dog runs straight at her. She is not jumpy or unsure for anything else, loud noises, strange people, water/swimming.

Now, I want to know what I did wrong. The mother has had litters before, I believe this is her 4th. I cant get a hold of her previous breeder. She was a decent mother to the pups for the first 2.5 weeks. Then, she really didnt want to nurse them anymore despite me keeping pups nails trimmed. I weaned pups to mush at about 3 weeks but would still put her with the pups at night and times during the day. When I would go to let her out, she'd get excited and sometimes step on the pups and cause them to scream. As the pups got older and more interactive, she would play with them and often make them scream by biting too hard or accidentally stepping on them. The mother likes to play rough with my other dogs. It was like she couldnt tune her play down to an appropriate level. But she never left marks on the pups or cause them to bleed, etc.

Dad of pups I've had since 7 weeks. Never really did anything to socialize him with dogs or environment, hes always been confident and good/tollerant, albiet dominant, with other dogs.

A only a few times, I let my very good older dogs play with the puppies and didnt seem to be an issue. Puppies enjoyed playing with my older dogs.

My question, what could be going on. Has anyone else seen this? Is it bad temperament in puppies? Is mom terrorizing pups and causing lasting effects? Should I have done more dog exposure for the pups when they were here? They left my place around 7 and 9 weeks.

I wont be able to respond until Monday. But please be honest. I feel very bad for the puppy buyers having to deal with this and have offered them all money back for the pups. But so far, everyone is in love. I am encouraged that the puppy I kept has seemed to improve so much.

How many pups were in this litter ?  Given that you had to wean
them a little early, and kept Mom away part of the day, did you
in fact split the puppies up from each other quite a lot ?

Bossy dam, dominant sire could mean that offspring are slightly
'frightened of their own shadow', lol, but I would not normally expect
this.  The hope is that this (quite natural) combo just makes for sensible
and respectful pups !

Unless each individual pup was subject to too much separation, (or other
stressors: noise, cold etc)  maybe at the 'wrong' moment in terms of Fear
Stages, and/or spent too much time out of the nest with the human members
of your pack - e.g. you don't say if you have children - then it does sound
as though this is an inherited temperamental factor.  But cheer up:  what is
really important is the 'recovery time' from showing their initial fear of other dogs.  
From what you describe, that sounds as if it is fairly quick.  Also, it is a human
expectation that all dogs should get along well with other dogs;  it is convenient
for us if they do.  BUT,  i.m.h.o.,  there is actually nothing wrong with youngsters
exhibiting a little caution around 'stranger' dogs !  It could save them from being
attacked by a grumpy one !

You said they played with your other dogs while still with you, presumably
they were not exhibiting this fear with them ?

Personally I'd rather have any puppy slightly more reserved initially when
meeting new dogs, than one which, despite my efforts, bounced up straight
away to every dog it saw.  Maybe you and your pups' new owners are just
worrying too much ?

Post the pedigree and were the pups bred from truly "sound" dogs? Since you didnt work either dog, honestly how do you know if the pairing was compatible? If it were me, this mother would not be bred again. Is this why she was sold in the first place? I had a bitch like this and she had one and only one litter. I raised the mom from a puppy and I still wouldnt breed her again.  However, none of the puppies were shy or fearful. This is jmo, but where genetics DO play a role. If I were the buyer, I would be out socializing now and heavy. Do you have any sort of return policy?

Although you stated that dog parks are a no no, you placed a very young dog into a situation where she didnt have the experience to deal with strange dogs and she could have been hurt. Not good. Your dogs don't need to be happy with other dogs. They just need to know how to act around them. I only use the dog park to test dogs on their level of aggression toward other dogs and on the outside, not inside with other dogs. This has worked well for me with rescue dogs. There are just too many variables that you have no control over that can cause harm, or in some cases serious injury, to take the chance. This is not an avenue to see if your breeding was wrong. Shepherds are not golden retrievers and do not need to be social with other people or dogs in a strange situation.

Barb

Sounds like a temperament conflict to me;  possibly some MIGHT grow out of it??  But questionable.  Good luck  Nan

Kudos for offering to return the purchase price, and it says to me that your pups are with good folks as none of them took advantage of that! 
I would not breed that bitch again. My girl was a 1 time mom, but she was as careful of every pup even when she was desperate to go out. She would gently nuzzle all 7 into a heap in a corner of the box, & she kept checking, checking, & she never dawdled, she did her thing & returned, quick as a flash! Even when they were too big, when one of the 3 goofy, lop eared giant 12 week old pups we held back would try to nurse, she would stop & stand for them! ( We didn't let them, but she would've!) She LOVED her puppies, & it was obvious! And that is what I would expect from a good breeding bitch, I wouldn't have another litter from a bitch that was blasé about her pups! To me, that is a temperament flaw. jackie harris

I agree with Kalibeck.   The bitch is not a breed worthy female. Her actions of her pups is not acceptable. I will not address anything else. Just do some research about any bitch and the offspring before you buy any pup for your kennel bitch...YOU must do a lot of checking and look at pedigrees, check the last known progeny of any pair and if not familiar get help from well known breeders of reputation of sound temperaments..Heretiary temperment traits are serious and are obvious from the day of birth. DID you spend first day in the birthing box or room and watch each one born and help the bitch or watch and log how each pup took to its first meal,..,How soon did each pup get a tit, how did the mother respond to each pup and make a log and each pups first step ,each pups first response and how vigorous each pup took its meals and how she, female bitch , responded to the pups as a whole and on each individual..IT takes a lot of experience and help to learn all this..IT is a lot of hard hours of watching, and learning what indicates weak moms and weak pups to make sure you do not rebreed her.  

Each female bred to a different male also can be watched to see if she is same or was she different with each litter. DID she react same or do you know..IF none of this is able to be determined...do not breed her anymore.

YR

Bitch was a dual patrol k9 until her leg had to be amputated after being shot during an apprehension.  I'm good friends with her handler (its his newly ex-wife who bred her before and now wont talk to me, somewhat understandably) who said he's never seen a dog enjoy inflicting pain on people like she.  But she loves her handler with 0 handler aggression.  At 7, she is always wanting to work.  This was her last litter though.  He wanted a pup and I did too.  Love the bitch's social aggression and high hunt drive.  I guess you cant count on a great dog to be a good mom.  Didnt even think about asking the ex wife about it.  I just assumed she would be good.

She had 10 pups.  First 5 came while I was at work, and the wife had to take over.  All she did was watch and change the whelping box, and hated every bit of it.  Blood grosses her out.  Momma did everything.  I came home as soon as I found out, and only interfered to snatch away the placentas.  She nursed them all to 2.5 weeks without me touching or helping any pup out.  And then around 2.5 weeks, she was pretty insistent that she didn't want to nurse any more.  And I made sure she had a good amount of exercise so that it wasnt a question of her wanting to get up and work

I found it weird that as the pups got older, they didn't play with each other.  They played with me (love to be petted) and toys, but not each other.  Any time one pup tried to initiate "play", the other pup would growl.  It would turn into a growling match, and then the two would walk away.  There wasnt really a dominant "bully" pup or a submissive "beat up".

Questions
1) A good momma is all puppies need before leaving a breeder as far as dog exposure?
2) If a first time mother displays similar poor mothering skills like my bitch, do you take the pups away permanently from her? find a foster mom?

IMO  on your 1st question:

Yes, especially if the puppies have not had all of their shots, I would not let them around other dogs.  Maybe other dogs in the home, but only after they are walking good and Momma dog shows no concerns.  I think most Momma dogs prefer that other dogs stay away though.  For my bitch, who never met a dog or human she did not love, had zero tolerance for any other dog near her puppies until they were around 6 weeks old.  Then she would only allow a quick sniff from another dog in the house; if he lingered too long, she made it clear that he needed to move along.

Another input, just from my own experience.  When my bitch's puppies (9 of them) got big enough that she had to stand up to nurse them all, Rose was pretty done with the whole nursing thing.  She would stand for a few minutes and then walked away.  If she was laying down and they nursed, she would tolerate it more.  I honestly do not remember how old the puppies where.  I know they were starting on solid foods (some started that as soon as they could fall in the bowl).

Did your bitch ever get actually snippy or aggressive towards the puppies?

The other posters are much more experienced than I am, so definitely listen to them.