UK laws regarding 'dangerous dog' owners - Page 1

I saw this article earlier this evening about lawmakers in the UK increasing the penalty for the owners of dogs who attack people. 

Well, I kind of have some mixed feelings about this, and was wondering if you guys would share your opinions on the subject.

Here's what I'm wondering:  
1. As someone who was bitten as a child, I certainly can see where most people are coming from when they want tougher laws for owners of 'dangerous dogs;' however, as a dog owner I also understand maybe most of the cases we hear about have more of a story to them than is printed in the newspaper.
2. If I, as someone who tries to be responsible with my dog, try to train my dog well, but something freakish happens and a person gets bitten, how is it that I could face up to 14 years in prison? Here's an example: there is a woman who lives just off the base here who has a German Shepherd. In the neighborhood where she lives, even though she has a fence, there are children who have come up to her backyard and thrown rocks at her dog, and jeered him, and teased him with sticks. Her dog is a very well trained and good natured dog, but she's chased off kids several times after she hears her dog frantically barking at the kids. The local cops haven't done anything. If one of those brats gets bitten, it would still be her fault as a 'dangerous dog' owner.
3. My puppy knows that if someone rings the doorbell, then there's a stranger outside the house and she starts her alert barking (still trying to work on the 'quiet' command ). This article seems to indicate that if someone is outside my house (the example of a kid on my lawn retrieving a football is given in the article), and my dog is barking at the kid, and the kid feels scared, then my dog is a 'dangerous dog' and I can be fined, sent to jail, or who knows what else in punishment. 



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10224738/Tougher-sentencing-for-dangerous-dogs-wont-prevent-attacks-warns-RSPCA.html

 

Home owners were warned earlier this year that they could potentially face prosecution if their dog scares a child who strays into their garden to retrieve a football.

Under the rules, an owner whose dog “nips, bites or barks” at a person such as a postman could in theory face court action.

There are concerns that the law could lead to dog owners being threatened with legal action if their pet barks aggressively at a child.

They kept stressing that the new harsher laws are directed toward dangerously out of control dogs that severely bite or kill someone. A well trained dog with a responsible owner isn't likely to find themselves in that position.

They said that the current penalty for killing a person is two years and that will be changed to 14 years. I think that's appropriate.

You seem to think that these new laws being proposed in the UK are a bit much. Maybe you haven't notice that these new laws are about on par for current dangerous dog laws here in the states. Your dog can be declared dangerous just for being allowed to aggressively bark at people. I suspect this is for the protection of mailmen and to get people to stop letting their dogs do this. I've seen more than my share of vicious dogs either chained up or behind way too short fences and their people do nothing about it. It is terrifying and you know that it's just a matter of time before that dog gets loose and bites someone. By having them declared dangerous, it just might prevent a bite. If you don't let your dog do this, it isn't a problem.

Your dog is considered an attractive nuisance so it is up to the owner to keep stupid people out of their yard and from getting bitten. If someone wanders into your yard and gets bitten, it is the owners fault. This includes brats coming over the fence. I, personally, keep clips on my gates, not to keep my dogs from lifting the latch and getting out, but to keep stupid people from coming in. I figure it gives me a couple of minutes of barking dogs to get out there and shoo them away. No lie, but this actually happens. Why anyone would want to pet my dogs when they are doing their best cujo imitation, I will never know, but they do.

I always keep an ear on my dogs when they are outside and if they bark, I'm all over it, not just because barking is seriously annoying, but to make sure that someone isn't near my fence and potentially reaching over or through it and getting bitten.

There are a lot of irresponsible dog owners out there and maybe by getting on them for earlier smaller problems, it might keep a severe bite or killing from happening. I don't see any of this affecting the well trained dog with a responsible owner.

Now at the time this occurred i was in MD, US.

I went to the grocery store on a beautiful day. I left my 3 dogs out back with 6 ft privacy fence.(5/8 thick treated boards). 1 mali/dutchie cross,  GSD czech/west cross,   rescue.....


I returned home with an animal control notice on my door. stating i didnt have adequate water, or shelter for my dogs.   (5 gallon water bucket on my deck, and 18'x29' ft deck w/ 6 ft clearance for shade)

Animal control came back out for a revisit. The officer asked me what breeds of dogs i had. He said he thinks he should confiscate my one dog.(grey sable rescue) because he is a wolf hybrid, I kept my temper!!!!!!!! though he is big for a shepherd. 98lbs working weight. back 2 ribs showing.
Then my other gsd is a red sable. according to the officer he was a dangerous dog because he stood with his lip curled 3 ft from him while he took pictures of the dogs guarding the fence line.

then my mali bitch he said was aggressive. (she was/is territorial)!!!!!if he came in the fence she would have eaten him alive).also he described her as the (one that looks like a fox i dont knwo the breed) (she was a nasty bitch!!!!!!)

even though I had multiple signs up for "beware of dog"-"dog bites"- do not reach over fence- jump fence how quick can you get out. etc.....Even 2 (police k9) signs on each gate.

I went through multiple meetings and had to get multiple other trainers in my area(friends) to go before the board to clear me. As this ACO pushed the fact i had aggressive dogs.



Now this was my fault-- i should not have left my dogs out.  and i knew my one neighbor was scared of dogs. However my bone of contention was the fact the ACO had no experience with dogs  what so ever!!!! didnt even know the breeds must less their behavior or why.    Most animal control officers have no fucking clue!!!!!!  they are either trying to become a police officer that cant pass a drug test or a pet owner that believes we live in a perfect pet world or the just plain are stupid. Now with that said i have met 2 that have a clue and are not jaded. but  they are 2 of many that arent pushed by BS propaganda.   iii


so any AC officers here that have a clue no offence. but you know most of you guys need a freaking instructors course!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as well as the dumb aXXXXX law
makers.






The only way to change this--------- People join the AC and the HS etc... that have a freaking clue....... Oh wait I will hold my breath...... il be dead before the next person that understands dogs joins!!!!!!!!! guess now i cant post anymore.

the only other way that i practice, is to change 1 other persons mind at a time!!!!


edit:   just to be clear on the revisit i was cleared after educating the AC officer and running him through the procedure in my home and on my land. with the help of other trainers that knew me and my dogs plus the care they recieve.

 

We have a mess !   The '91 Dangerous Dogs Act caused more problems
than it solved, and left us with the legacy that anyone who is "frightened"
by any dog has the right to complain to the authorities.  Mix in the number
of vexacious people who think it 'funny' to complain unnecessarily, and a
bunch of magistrates who mostly don't know their arse from their elbow in
dog related issues, plus a percentage of those working in the Police and
the RSPCA to whom their uniform  is of greater importance than common
sense, and we have a right old cauldron.

No, not saying that is true of everyone who has these cases to deal with,
some Pit Bull situations etc have been extremely well handled.  But with
the sheer range of available penalties, now to increase, and the incompetence
of maybe half of those involved, plus an astonishing degree of public ignorance
about dogs (even from those who own them),  I can't help but think we will get
yet another rash of unjust cases of seizure, sentencing, etc.

While I am ever so glad to see the emphasis swing from the breed of dog to the
lack of responsibility of the owner, I can't help feeling it is too little, too late.
After all, it was made clear - long and loud - to our legislators that they were on
the wrong track originally;  needed to amend the '91 Act sooner rather than later;
should have taken this tack against irresponsible ownership earlier ... but the
wheels of Parliament grind awful slow,  and after all, if you are an MP you don't
want to admit that some common or garden dog owner knows more than you about
what you ought to do.

I'm not bothered by any laws bringing in harsher punishments for dogs that cause injury to innocent people.  As long as they don't start thinking about banning protection dog sports or legislating against specific breeds, I'm all groovy.

But you have to remember everything progresses forward  whether it be in the direction we like or not.  

Laws are already in favor of the offenders,  Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see the humble mans right are being diminished in favor of the sue happy man looking to get rich from the grey area of the law.

In the Us they have already started banning breeds. ignorance and the inability to agree has been our worst enemy here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greyhoundgirl, I have an almost 6 month old puppy that is reactive to dogs. When I walk her outside, as soon as she sees another dog, she's alert. If I know the owner and dog, I have to slowly bring her up to the dog because of how excited she gets- she's always extremely desperate to play with other dogs, regardless of how frequently we have puppy play dates with her. If I see someone I don't know, who is walking a dog I don't know, then Shelby will try to bark and lunge to be able to go up to the other dogs. While I know she just wants to play (and I do know this for a fact because I've been watching her behavior extremely closely just in case), the other person walking their dog might not think that. And I totally understand where they're coming from- if you don't know a dog, and it's barking and lunging then yeah that's definitely scary. But I don't think that that's grounds for a fine.

And I agree about irresponsible dog owners (a few months ago this guy tried to bring his Scottie over to Shelby because he thought his dog would be okay; however, I could see it's body language and eye contact and I quickly took Shelby away from the guy and the Scottie before it tried to bite Shelby), but laws like this will make it easier for people to be fined or sentenced that don't actually have dangerous dogs. 

Also, I never owned a dog until I came to the UK, so no, I don't know what the laws are in the States. I'm actually surprised that it is like that in the States.

Another thing I don't understand. "Allowing a dog to bark aggressively." Who determines if the barking is aggressive? I know Shelby's barks so I know which ones are for alerting me, talking to me, barking during play, and barking when I have to sweep the floor and I have to put her outside. Would it be some random person outside deciding what sounds aggressive versus what doesn't sound aggressive? And, if she's ever outside while I'm cleaning the house, she will sometimes bark since she wants to be inside with me. I ignore her because otherwise I would be rewarding her barking. Is it better to "allow" her to bark because otherwise I'd be rewarding her behavior, or should I repent of my cleaning ways and let her back in while she's still barking, and thus condone her bad behavior? Would a neighbor hear her barking and think she's being aggressive? 


The breeder for my puppy was telling me that when they see her walking Shelby's sire, they cross the road to walk on the other side of the street. He is a massive GSD, but he's so sweet and gentle that a woman who is 5 foot tall and no more than 110 pounds is able to walk a dog that weighs almost as much as her, on a loose lead with no problems. If he happened to bark, what would happen to her and the dog?

The way I feel about any law is that it should impact as FEW innocent/not guilty citizens as possible. I can think of several different, and better, ways to decrease dog bites and increase public awareness that would be less likely to lead to false sentencing.

We have all been there if we've kept Shepherds in a populated
environment !  I'm so used to people crossing the street if they
see me coming along with a GSD or two, I hardly notice anymore.
Sad.  More likely to notice those who DON'T get out of the way.
[There are SOME, with or without dogs of their own !]  My dogs don't
have to be misbehaving in any way.  LOL   I know a lot of board
contributors say they also experience this, wherever they live.

Unfortunately I can also empathise completely with you, as my old bitch
Vida used to sound off at other dogs in the street, at least when she
first came to live with me (it got better after being worked on).  I often
thank my lucky stars that was before the current legislative situation.
There will be cases of injustice;  this country's way of dealing with any
canine problems always seems to be to put the cart before the horse.

I live in the states and have american bulldogs.  mine's been socialized, obedience classes and parks, pet shops. and one is enrolled in fly ball and another here soon as well.  but anyway, when i came back home my dog acted scared and when i went up to him he laid down and shook. i found out that the neighbor kid hit him throw the pen.  but i cant prove it.  and the same kid shot the dogs father in the back.  becasue i can not prove it but saw the kid carrying the gun.  it's my word again his.   anyway my dogs will bark at the kid and try to get to him.  people dont relize that the dogs are being teased, or hit by the neighbors of kids while in th owner is in the house or gone.

i been working on haveing working dogs, but now my one male who is in flyball is scared of people becasue the brat that hit him while i was gone.  the kid even told me that he didnt like my dogs.  and his grandmother is my stepmother and she hates my dogs as well becasue they bark at her.  i do everything i can to try to keep my dogs friendly and take precaustions.  but people dont think that people tease dogs, hit or abuse them while owner is present.  i think people should take inconsideration that the owner has never been in trouble and has vet reference on the character of the dog.  i been 30 some yrs and never had a problem because i try to be carefull and if i know a dog of mine will bite i tell people please dont  pet.

I protect my dogs from others, not the other way around. My dogs are never outside unattended, partly to keep them safe from nutballs and partly to make sure they don't annoy the neighbors by barking. No matter what the provocation, if your dog bites someone, you are going to be found at fault, maybe not criminally, but you are going to be sued and your insurance is most likely going to drop you and it's going to be tough to get more.

You don't have to worry about people mistaking what sort of barking your dog is doing if you don't let your dog do it. My feeling is that my dogs are mine and if anyone ever has to actually notice them for any reason other than to admire how beautiful - yes, I'm biased - or well trained they are, then I need to do something about it. They are not allowed to bark for more than a few seconds before I'm all over them and they either knock it off or I bring them in. There's no excuse for a barking dog annoying the neighbors. In the UK, I know you can't use barking collars - which is a terrible shame - but you can bring the dog in or go out and correct the dog so he knocks it off. Exercise, socialization, and mental stimulation help decrease barking too.

These new laws don't seem out of line and are pretty normal here in the states.