diferences between Czech and DDR lines - Page 1

hey guys, i can tell the difference between a west working line and west show lines, but a czech line and a DDR line, what is the difference? yes i know they are from different countries (for all of the smart ass comments to come) is one weaker,softer,less drive. i really can't see the differences and need some of you professionals to give your opinions. not looking maybe one day. would like a strong dog for protection and I like the looks of both the ddr/czech dogs.even the looks (to me)don't seem to be that much different. Tina

Hi Tina, I wouldn't worry about country as much as individual dog. One bitch I have is West German showlines but trained by a Czech .A fireball to say the least and without any formal PP training yet. I don't worry she will bite the man. This weekend we wil find out. Mine looks definately W.German and is a very alpha bitch. Just depends on the dog. The pedigree is a clue and you should look at that ,and conformation too,but you get good and bad everywhere.Alot of the eastern european dogs that I am familiar with are "soft " meaning they respond to a soft correction does not mean they are not "killers" in personality. I hope that helps.

I agree with gsdlvr2. I have a male that is West working/DDR and he is a bull head, but he is also a natural when it comes to Schutzhund. I also have a DDR female that is sensitive on correction, but will have no hesitation to attack on a hidden sleeve. Just like gsdlvr2 said, it really depends on the bloodline and their training. There is going to be good/bad in every dog, you just need to find the middle ground for what your looking for. Good Luck!!

hardness /softness is not synonmous with a motivation of a dog ..that is whether it will bite a person for real or not --- case in point -- you can have a dog ..almost any breed ..even a breed without guard and or protection instincts --and gine the right scenario/context --can learn have learned to bite someone --- case in point -- fear biter//// can be the softest that could eve be in a canine dog --but brought to the point --will bite -- what you wish to understand is the stess level / the hardness level / the aggression level / the genetic bent from parentage/ prey vs. defense make-up of the dogs -- all types from all the european countries have in these respects a repitiore in those regards as they relate to the GSDS -- another casr in point -- i was very lucky to have a Larus V. Batu son -- bites extremely hard, crushing hard ..would break your arm and fast.. blink of an eye entry / attack !! .. high in aggression and stress level -- if i didn't tell one --they would think he was from a working line rather than a show line --one last point -- from my exoeriences --i have seen a genre of certain tyoe and structure from one country more predominent -- but then again maube becuase similar group of friens have gotten GSD from similar sources therefore the tendency to see similar from a region

IMO not alot of difference between the two. Of course their are no absolutes in anything so you still have to shop carefully if looking for a new dog.

BOTTOM LINE: Pedigree... period. DDR dogs are the dogs that were bred with the group of bloodlines in the GDR/DDR - German Demokratische Republik aka as Demokratiche Deutsche Republik or EAST GERMANY, as compared to the BDR, Bundes Deutsche Republik or West Germany. Czechoslovakia, and later Czech Republik and Slovakia have and have had their own breeding programs and their own registry for a very long time. It is said that after WWII, the Czech Govt decided that all dogs belonged to the goverment, (actually almost EVERYTHING in the Country belonged to the Government, and under Socialist politics, all people were equal and no one could have more than another person. So individual "breeders" were only allowed to be an extension of the Czech goverment's breeding progam. There were several very good East German dogs, Bero vd Friedersdrofer Flur, Derrik v Haus Iris, just to name acouple, used in the Czech breeding programs. You will also see a Czech dog, Enno z Iglova in a few East and West German pedigrees as well. But basically, the difference between East and Czech is pedigree. Judy Malone www.altostland.com

altostland, I couldn't disagree more with your statement: "BOTTOM Line: Pedigree...period." It always come down to the individual animal. I've seen some individual GSDs from Lance saturated American Shepherd breeding of many generations that are totally correct temperament wise, easily trained for obediance and protection and incapable of any fear. I have also seen GSDs from the so called top working lines from DDR, Czech and W. Germany who are spooks or fauilty temperament-wise in other ways such as hard to train, dumb etc. In many "working line" litters there is a bell shaped distribution of temperament from too little defensive drive to too much, from oversensitivity to too little and from little prey drive to too much. It is the highly intelligent GSD that has the correct balance of drives and wants to please his master and protect his premises and famly that is the ideal temperamented GSD. One can select a stud dog from suppopsedly the best "working lines" who just doesn't happen to be a producer of ideal temperament. Also, I have sen spooks that were bred who produced some ideal temperamented dogs. A well documented example was American Shepherd blooded Ch. Holamor's Judd, a known spook. He was extensively bred anyway because many were ignorant of his lousy temperament, but admired his near perfect confirmation, pigment, movement, etc. He produced one of two kinds of temperaments: some completely sound ideal temperament that appeared to be dominant, and a higher proportion of spooks that produced nothing but spooks. The sound GSDs of him were hard as nails and very correct in temperament and produced it. I know of one top working stud from a "top working kennel" in w. Germany who produced a fair number of puppies who turned out to be spooks and wierdos. I have seen some unbelieveably correct and hard temperamented dogs from W. German showline kennels that could rival any top profung dog if they were trained to compete in profung exclusively. Look at Teejay of Wilhendorf, he's super correct temperamentally and hard as nails and could certainly be a top profung winner here or in Germany if his owner chose to specialize him in that instead of zuchschau. In general pedigree study can give you some probabilities, but it can never override the individual producing ability of the sire and the dam and each puppy must be assessed and evaluated individually and repeatedly during its development. Repeat breeding offer a much higher probability of certainty to what was already known to have been produced.

Altosland I have been around quite a few of each and you are correct. Like I have said before even within each there are no absolutes. But these two lines have very similier characteristics.

My main reason for getting into the DDR dogs, years ago, was the hips. I just got much better hips overall, mostly in percentages of normals vs HD+. I found the average was pretty close to what the DDR SDG published, around 85 to 87% normal. This is an average, but some lines were better, mainly Don vom Rolandsteich. He was a super hip producer and the SDG published at one time 100% normal hips in his offspring, which adjusted very slightly as his mature and surveyed offspring finally totalled to over 200!! Formerly, I had been breeding with SV show and working lines and had gotten the opposite, maybe only 15 - 20% normal hips (that would OFA). If this was the only problem, it would be bad enough, but I had temperament problems, soft ears, missing testes in abundance in the SV show dogs. I can't say that my experiences with either group of dogs (DDR or SV) was a fluke, because the results were observed over a long period of time and with many different bitches and breedings. I actually OFA'd almost (but not quite) 100 dogs and bitches over the 25 years that I was breeding. What I would do is I would do a breeding to a nice stud dog and then keep three or four pups, all raised in the same conditions, same food, etc. So, I cannot say that there was a real difference in the environmental factors, either. One might come up good and the rest would fail the OFA.. And I mean REALLY fail it. I got to where I was pretty good at reading the radiographs, myself, you know! OK. There it is. I wanted to have a breeding program, to produce working dogs, and I could not do it with such bad percentages in the hips. Impossible! As an added benefit, I saw that the DDR dogs were generally very appealing in their appearance and the temperament was quite good. Are there duds? You bet! I had one with a marvelous pedigree who was such a loser! It happens. But it happened a lot less with the DDR dogs, I think because the government was very careful and provided a lot of guidance and data for the breeders to go by.. not just on hips, but in five other main areas: ears (and ear carriage), coat faults, testes missing, temperament faults, and structural mediocrity. There are always good and bad dogs in any population. "A good dog is where you find it". But in breeding, your efforts should be to produce a high percentage of high utility animals, not just the occasional show dog of breeding worth. And about the Czech dogs I know little to nothing except that one famous kennel was known to mix in Carpathian wolves with the good DDR blood. What a senseless waste!

I hope you understand that when I say normal hips vs HD+ I mean that the HD+ are proving to be dysplastic. On the Czech breeding wolves into their dogs, this is very foolish. I read something about it on the internet and even saw a picture of a very famous DDR dog (I think it may have been Sky vom Schotterhof) mounting a wolf bitch for breeding. Now, I cannot say that I doubt this a bit because I got a 3/4 DDR, 1/4 Czech male from a breeder maybe ten years ago, now, and he was a really strange dog. He had long, long skinny forelegs that looked more like stovepipes, and they were very reminiscent of a wolf's legs. He was not really very typical for a DDR dog and he had a strangely incorrigible nature, which his father also had. The dad was known for his alpha personality, that he was very difficult to handle. Yeah.. Like a wolf. A good DDR dog is the generally the most obedient of dogs. They can be a bit bull-headed if they are in drive, but they are not generally prone to challenge the handler. This is alpha social behavior. I know everyone thinks their male is alpha, but this is different. The rare dog cannot subordinate himself properly to a handler and these dogs are actually dangerous. Not good working dogs! Dumb to breed wolves into your bloodline, if you ask me. The Czechs liked to play around like this, I guess. I read something about a government breeding program in Slovakia or some place like that was breeding African jackals of some sort with Alaskan Huskies, on the bet that they would make superior scenting dogs. Crazy, I think! Nothing beats a well-bred GSD. Now I am in real trouble! The show dog people and the wolf hybrid people will all jump in on me! Yikes!