dog won't out - Page 1

Can someone explain why there is always made a point as to whether or not a dog will out? Isn't this just a training issue or does it go deeper than that? Thank you,

Some dogs are just more intense than others. Read the post about dogs being clear-headed, not that the dog is not but can be a factor. . Myself I don't have a problem with a dog that is hard to out. But it is a control issue and you should be able to control your dog. In Schutzhund you do lose points which I'm sure someone will point out. I have limited experience in bite work but this is what I know about it. It can be a training issue...

A dog who does not out in Schutzhund protection work now is DISMISSED!!! It is not simply a loss of points. It is about control and discipline for the dog. Higher drive dogs, especially if the "out" is not taught correctly, do have a harder time outing. I have not had trouble teaching dogs to out because I teach it first with toys. Yes, when they are high in drive in protection, it can become harder, but with proper training and making sure the dog knows it will be rewarded again (with a bite), most dogs can learn easily to out. There are also some specific things one can do in training to refine this out.

There's a great article entitled "An inside look at the OUT" in the latest issue of USA magazine, very informative on the subject I thought. One part of the article Judge Bill Szentmiklosi says "We understand that dogs in the highest levels of temperament, drives and aggression cannot "out" as fast as those dogs of lesser character..." and he goes on to say that alot of attn. is payed to the transition phase and what the dog does after the helper stops moving. He says "We understand as judges that we must reward behaviors that are pronounced. So when a dog demonstrates what we want to see genetically in a breed, we must allow the dog sufficient time (transition phase) to gather itself, therefore, rewarding the hardness of the dog." Its amazing how one can read so much about the way the dog outs. So I think its deeper. But training is very important and Without being "taught" clearly (every dog is different and may take a different method to reach them) the dog cannot perform the excersise effectively (handlers fault). In SchH you lose points for slow outs and second and third commands...If the dog does not out after the third command he/she fails.

That's actually a good rule as you need control.. Had a friend and he had a very hard male and that was always his challenge getting the out. I knew he lost points but been awhile since that happened.

I believe this is a real test of a dogs "clear headedness" (probably not a word) and it's obedience. The higher the dogs drive the more important it is taught properly. I believe the judges want to see the control, but they don't want to see a dog that is willing to fall off the sleeve the second action stops.

"but they don't want to see a dog that is willing to fall off the sleeve the second action stops." I would have to say that would depend on the judge. In the USA rulebook under the out it says, the dog outs immediately with or without a command-full points.

I think the key word is "willing." I am aware of what the USA rule book says, but if you talk to most judges I think their idea of the dog that is recognized as pronounced is the one that fights when it is driven, that dares you to move after the fight or escape has come to a halt and the one who although it outs quickly, it is apparent that he reluctant to quit. A dog tha comes off so fast that he appears to not want to be on the field is not a pretty picture no matter how technically correct he is.