Liver and Blue German Shepherds - Page 3

Did a touch of research on the user who bumped this thread. Big talk from someone who has yet to touch the breed standard with a 10 foot pole. It is what it is, folks.

I made semi-formal investigation into the correlation between health problems of blue GSDs and liver GSDs as compared to their normal coloured counterparts. I focused primarily on skin and coat afflictions, for, with the exception of certain lethal-gene combinations color-genetics is not typically affective of the health of the dog. Sources included veterinary journals, comparative research into recessive vs. dilute colors in other breeds, and speaking with owners (NOT breeders!) of liver and blue GSDs. After all was said and done I ran a statistical analysis on the finding, using the normally pigmented GSD as a control, and factoring the likelihood of skin/coat illness in a normally colored dog.

I determined the following conclusions:

There is no statistically significant correlation between the Liver GSD and an increase in skin/coat problems.

There IS a statistically significant correlation between the Blue GSD and an increase in skin/coat problems.

I suspect that a great deal of the problem with blue (dilute) GSDs comes from Color Dilution Alopecia, an inherited form of follicle dysplasia, which affects other breeds that have dilution. In the case of the doberman, a classic study because they only focus on Dominant or Recessive color, and Dominant or Recessive dilution (dilution is recessive to full pigmentation), fawn (recessive color, dilute) and blue (dilute) are at an increased risk for CDA because of the dilute colors.

CDA mirrors the conditions associated with thyroid conditions. As such it is conceivable that it may be misdiagnosed in some cases.

I reread the various countries breed standards on the GSD, and from what I can understand, the emphasis was on intense colors, with pale, washed out (dilute?) colors being a fault. There was also in some cases a focus on the color of the nose ("must be black"). I theorize that this was included to exclude dilutes (which have grey noses), but it also excludes livers because their noses are red. Except for the AKC standard, I could find no further evidence of livers historically being a fault.

The thing is that since livers / blues are recessive and most be carried by both parents to be expressed -- and both are faults -- there is a much smaller gene pool of liver and blue GSDs out there. The smaller gene pool accounts for an increase in anecdotal "evidence" of increased health problems due to a smaller number of individuals present in the GSD population.

However, when the GSD population as a whole is evaluated, it shows that only blues do indeed have increased health problems (emphasis of this study was skin and coat).

well why the heck would anyone breed a dog with alopecia ? if its genetic ,could the blues to be mated be tested for it?and if found not to carriers of the genes, would the resulting blue pups still be at risk of skin and health issues.to the point more so then any other color gsd

     Hopefully, to my right, in my Avatar, is my male dog," Blue Jaga." As you can see, he has a rather thick coat ( and yes, above my post is my sister, never been a secret), "he IS BLUE!"

    He has "NO " Alopecia or any OTHER HEALTH ISSUES! He is a fantastic dog, other than he likes to chase our horses, although when they get out, his HELP is very much welcomed.

     His temperment is terrific. Even though he is not around kids too often, when they are here, they can do whatever they want to him.

     His pedigree is not shabby either! His conformation is, IMO, great. Nice straight back. That is what I like, straight back.

     I have posted his pic here before in full size, don't want to beat no dead horses. He's Blue and a GREAT DOG! Not ALL Blues have problems.That's  what I have found.

     I also beleive there are a lot more Blues out there than some admit to!

I'm not saying that all blue dogs carry or suffer from CDA. I have an extreme dislike for those general "all" or "none" statements because there are almost always exceptions. CDA just has higher instances in blues (and other dilute-coat colors) than in full-pigment dogs. But again, that does not mean all blues have or even carry it.

Without genetic testing, there is no way to know. I could not find a definative source that stated whether it is definatively inherited, or if it is something that comes up on an individual basis. Some have said it is, others say it is not. If the latter, then it couldn't be screened for. The cause is atypical pigmentation on the hairshaft, which makes the hair brittle and prone to breaking. Breaks below the skin can open an avenue for staph infections which can resemble "hotspots" and other irritations. Again, these mirror other symptoms, and can be misdiagnosed.

It has been suggested, though not confirmed, that the darker "steel blue" dogs are less apt to have problems than the very light "powder blue" dogs. I could believe this, seeing as how a darker blue dog would have a more throrough melanin coating on the hair shaft, thus (assumably) less breakage.

Here's a nice, brief intro to CDA. This source says it is an inherited condition. I would be reluctant to assume that because I have heard that melanin placement, like finger/nose-prints, is unique to the individual, and not passed down. I fear only a breeding study could confirm or deny that.

http://www.tapestrychihuahuas.com/ColorDilutionAlopecia.html 

Here's another good introduction bit; with sources at the bottom:

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogconditions.html

There will always be blue and liver GSDs cropping up from time to time. It is impossible to breed out recessive traits based on phenotype because you can't tell what the dog carries. Hence, there will always be coated dogs as well. In all breeds, not just GSDs. (Coated dalmations, anyone?)

Personally, I have always liked the liver color. I know it is outside of breed standard, but visually I think it is striking, especially when in bicolor, blanket, and sable forms. I've always loved red dogs of any breed. that's really what started my study, and it took a little over a year to collect and analyze all the date. But I'd have to say it was worth it. I learned a lot about other breeds in the process.

I never even knew there was such a thing as a "fawn Irish setter."

I guess it stands to reason, but I never even thought about it before.

i have never seen a liver colored one. i would be interested to have a look if anyone has a picture please share it with me.can the liver also be liver and black   liver and tan   I'm a no nothing on them as i said i never seen one ..i thought they were very rare

Liver sable pup ugly little bugger...lol

well the head looks ok ! the nose not so good.looks like a solid little pup.will he darken up like most sables? i know the nose color will not change.and thats about all i know about that.

We have a blue sable in our rescue. She is striking looking and has no health issues.. Evidently, she was traumatized by a man, but she is as sweet as she could be, and really pretty...

I for one am always looking for pedigrees and photos of livers, blues, whites that are out of dark parents, dogs with unusual markings or any other unusual coat or color trait, as well as photos and pedigrees of dogs and parents of the usual GSD colors and patterns.  The more dogs and data available, the more likely it is that variations in coat, color, pattern, etc can be understood and to some degree, controlled. 

There are many variations of color and pattern in the GSD that aren't understood and often aren't even described or pictured in most books.  For example, there is a variation that so far, I've only seen in bicolor GSDs where in the black areas of the coat, the undercoat of the dog is light and the outer coat is black, similar to that of a smoke colored cat.  One such example can be seen here.

http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/colors.html

The ground color of the GSD is actually the lighter color generally considered to be the marking color.  However, the BLACK or dilution of the black is actually the marking color.  The ground color is the red, tan, cream, or silver and the black marking color is spread over or through the ground color in whatever genetic pattern the dog inherited.  Genetic solid blacks can vary widely, from dogs that are very black all the way to dogs that have so much of the ground color bleeding through the black on the underparts, etc, that it may be extremely difficult to distinguish such a black from a dark bicolor.  Blacks without any shadings (dogs that are solid black even on the legs) bred together, still may produce progeny with shadings.  Dogs may also gain and lose small markings, something I don't yet quite understand because I've not seen a pattern to it.  I've seen  black dogs that lightened up to the point of having cheek patches, eyebrows, some ear hair, etc of the ground color, then that dog would lose the markings and end up solid black again, the cycle would repeat itself but what influenced the changes, I'm not sure except to say it wasn't puppyhood changing to maturity and it wasn't linked to seasonal coat changes.

One color I have yet to get enough good data on parents and ancestor pics and pedigrees on, is the solid red to tan dog with the black face or black muzzle.  Some of the German show dogs though, in photos where they hadn't dipped their saddles into black human hair dye en route to the right, have had saddles so faded that it wouldn't take much for them to have been solid red/tan with only black muzzles.  I've wondered if the solid/red tan dog with black muzzle is an extreme form of black saddle being reduced to invisibility.  However, it will take much more good photo and pedigree data to even begin to make any good guesses as to the genetics of that particular pattern.

While there may be some lines of blues affected with genetic alopecia, they are likely a minority.  I've seen many blues that were as  healthy as their non-dilute counterparts.  It may be that just like with blue dobermans, one has to select from bloodlines that aren't affected with the genetic skin problems.  I know for a fact that while many blue dobermans are affected with the genetic alopecia, that there are also lines of blues (and fawns ) and reds (which are often mildly affected) that are free of the problem.  The genes for blue, liver, and white were abundantly widespread throughout the breed since its beginning, and it wasn't until the 1950's and later that disqualifications of these colors were written into breed standards.  As with most competitive situations, politics played a gigantic role in the decisions to disqualify those colors.  In addition, knowledge of genetics was primitive in the 1950s and 1960s.  In the case of disqualification of whites, an erron