Has dog training actually improved. - Page 5

I personally don't use food, ball or any other "lures" to train my dogs.  Reward positive behavior - immediately - with an "yes" followed by effusive praise and "punish" unwanted behavior with a quick snap on the leash with a swift/stern "NO".  Timing is everything when you do this.  The snap followed ALWAYS with praise as-soon-as behavior changes to positive.  Again timing !

Some of these dogs are really dominant characters and won't tolerate unfair and needless compulsive corrections, and I personally ensure that every correction has a purpose and that the dog clearly understands that.  Works for me.  Reliable !

aakay,
Just curious how you would deal with a dog that basically laughs
at you when you 'snap' the leash? They are out there-not as common
as they used to be, and that could be because they are not as easy to
train at times.

Some dogs are not worried about making you happy. They will work,
and can be fantastic workers, but what happens when you reach the stage
of training where the dog says 'make me'? 

Very few dogs are "tractable" and want to make you happy. When training is kep as close to an instinctual level as possible and when you show the dog that there will be an advantage for it in every single exercise you tell it to perform, then you can train without too much conflict.

aakay,
I do agree that timing is critical and praise after a correction is equally important when the dog is correct.  I do not see a way to train a dog to any level of precision, speed and accuracy with out some other type of reward such as a toy, tug, or food.  I like a happy, motivated working dog that takes joy in it's work.  I don't think it is capable of accomplishing that for any extended period of time with tapping into drives other than pack or social drive.   I suppose if you isolate the dog for long periods of time the dog will come out desiring contact and then if worked briefly may work then put away.   But it is not going to develop a happy motivated working dog over the long haul.  Just like us dogs need a "paycheck" and few dogs will work for long periods and stay motivated when the only "paycheck" is a "good job."  As much as I enjoy my job and appreciate the accolades, awards and praise that I do get it is the "paycheck" and the enjoyment of the job that keeps me happy and working, not the praise.  I don't know what you do for a living but if your boss took away your "paycheck" and instead starting jumping up and down and praising you for every task you performed I think you'd be looking for a new job pretty quickly.  Unless, you are financially independent and don't need the job or the money then the show put on by your boss may be entertaining enough to keep you coming back each day.

JMO FWIW

Jim, thanks for your post. It made me sit up and take notice. I guess I really never considered something like pushing a puppy's bum down to be 'compulsion'! But you're right, it IS! And I've done it hundreds of times to a puppy that already knew the sit, but was too excited or distracted to actually put its bum on the floor!

My beef with pet trainers is that they just wouldn't bother with making the pup do a proper sit. For many of them, half a sit is good enough. And since they are not thinking of competing with their dogs, it really doesn't matter to many of them.  This leads to a dog that is only half-trained and liable to break training under distraction.

Someone who claims to be a dog trainer, but then allows
exercises to go uncompleted like you describe Sunsilver
imo don't deserve the title.  They are frauds.

Hundmutter, I could have described that better. The trainer knows how to do the exercise, and has titled many dogs in obedience and agility. She just doesn't bother to correct the dog's OWNER who is allowing the dog to get away with an incomplete exercise. The owner doesn't seem to care, so neither does the trainer. Kind of boggles the mind...trainer burnout, maybe??

 
There are 2 issues. 
            1.As we all know or should know, the results do not justify the  means. 
   Brain of just about any creature is most afraid of lack of oxygen and electric shock. Everything else in dog's life is put on back burner when electric shock is delivered or potentially can be delivered. Nothing else matter.   Nada.
E collar is capable to deliver 10 000 Volts +/-. Comparatively  stun gun delivers upwards of 50 000 V. There is minimal amperage delivered, thus there is usually no physical damage or effect to speak of. However psychological effect is superbly and - extremely high. The highest possible effect delivered by mechanical means that is.  Yes  I know the argument,  that trainers do not use highest level on their shock collar. However please keep in mind that even very mild level electric stimulus as it is called by users of such device,  is to be avoided at all cost by any organism.  Try to lick a 9 V battery and see how many times you will be willing to submit your self to that mild stimulus.  Thus yes, electric shock ( or stimulus ) AT ANY LEVEL is very-most effective stimulus we know in order to coerce desired behavior  in one way or another, from any creature. Non is better, stronger, more powerful. None.  That is why it is used and  dogs perform superbly well if trained with use of e collars. I would:) . Nobody can dispute that.   There are also other issues of using e collars besides the brain's total absorption with avoidance of e shocks or even minld stimulus. Namely  the association between the highest shock delivered accidently or intentionally with even mildest of  "stimulus" - as it is often called.  Such an association is very strong and often severe and it is permanent. Thus dog getting even mildest stimulus associates it then with severe 10 000 V shock if he/she ever got it before. I would venture to say that if not all then most dogs trained with e collar were subject to very high shock at one time or another.  
          2.   I ask if you  use  this device or any other device for that matter  better, are you for that reason more capable more skilled trainer? Is your training better? Not necessarily. Yes you will get better results but are  you better trainer and is your training skill better?  Lets not confuse cause and effect here.   We are talking about improvement of dog training and not about improvement of results of dog training based on some device - any device.  Just because people  who compete for high sums of money or for  victory in high level competition use it,does not mean that they are more skilled. Thus let's not confuse training method with training results.  Yes results are better with electric shock at any level of shock( stimulus:)), but  am I, because I am  delivering an electric shock better  trainer with better training  technique?  In other words just because  I am driving better car does not mean that I am better driver or my technique is better then race car driver's 50 or 70  years ago. Yes I could win with today even  moderately good passenger car  car races  which were conducted in 1930. BUT am I better driver? Is my driving  technique better? Not necessarily. Thus to  confuse results of training with quality and ability trainer and his/her training  is without merit and to substitute in discussion results of training for training technique is  confusing at best . It is logically inappropriate. It is false logical conclusion. Sophistry. 
Prager Hans

I would also like to ad that I understand the competitors need  to use e collars. It is probably not possible to compete succesfully in high level competition with out one  and that is, in my eyes, sad state of affair.  
 Prager Hans

Hans,
It is apparent that you do not have the experience or true understanding of using an E collar.  For that reason, yes I agree you are best off not using one on any dogs that you "train."  I will say that I have used E collars for over 15 years and my results and my experience are nothing compared to what you have described.  It is a tool like a choke collar, prong collar etc that if used incorrectly could  have negative results just like the other tools I mentioned.  For those with out a clear understanding and an experienced person to explain and illustrate the correct use of any training device I say do not use it.  

I will say training has evolved over the past 40 years form the stone age to the 21st century.  Hans, if clickers are "garbage" and E collars are garbage then you need to come out of the stone age.  Or put up a video of you working a puppy to an adult and show us your fantastic results.  Show these horrible competitors how to do it with out clickers or E collars and prove us wrong.  

I am sorry but I very strongly disagree with your above post.  In fact I probably couldn't disagree more.  Yes, the trainers that compete on a high level consistently are better trainers and there results are far better and speak for themselves.