Has dog training actually improved. - Page 1

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by brynjulf on 24 January 2013 - 19:01

I had a great debate with a group of oldster dog trainers the other day.  Couple of interesting questions came up.

Are current dog training methods actually an improvement on the old ways?

Dogs used to be titled in 2-4 months now it can be upwards of a year.

Dogs do not appear trained outside the ring.

Need lots more equipment.  Old days leash , collar and praise

What are your thoughts?  In an effort to become more humane and have better performance from our dogs have we actually "improved" dog training.   No need to get ugly with this thread folks it is meant to be a thought provoking thread. Maybe we can learn from each other .




ChrissieT

by ChrissieT on 24 January 2013 - 22:01

I have been training dogs for about 30 years now. When I started, a check was a correction for doing the wrong thing. A dog learnt what to do to avoid a correction! Whether it be a check on a choke chain, or a smack on the head with a 4'' by 2''.   If you wanted a dog to sit, you put it there, and told it sit etc.
 Now you lure a dog into position, tell it what it is doing, and reward. You show the dog what you want to start with, which seems a great deal fairer to me, and the reward the correct behaviour. You get a dog that wants to comply, and gives you a great deal more.
 I feel clickers etc. have gone even further than my little brain can cope with, but even they have there uses when the mere mortals have mucked it up!
I do like my dogs to enjoy their training, instead of it being compulsory. I feel it is a more enjoyable experience for us both!!

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 25 January 2013 - 10:01

Chrissie T has a great point about clicker training;  it can
greatly assist with the basic obedience training OF THE
OWNER / HANDLER when they have difficulties with the
timing of praise and secondary reinforcers.

Used more 'professionally'  it can also give splendid
results in refining the dogs actions, so that you get really
precise positioning, for competition or demonstrations;
and for  doing more intricate 'tricks' or Assistance work.

On the 'basic training' level, I think it is ONE of the alternative
tools in the workbox.  When clickers came into use, I always
thought they were fine and dandy, but if you were a 'natural'
dog enthusiast & trainer, you could use your voice,  you did
not need to work in an extra reward signifyer level.  But then
I went to a few more different Dog Clubs over the years and
observed a lot more pet owners training their dogs;  and
realised some really do need the extra help.

I started out trying to train dogs while exercising them as a
'dog walker', in my early teens, finding the majority of my
charges barely knew "Sit".  I was guilty of being a product
of the 50s/60s so I was a bit "yank & crank" at first.  But I
quickly realised that EVEN IN THOSE DAYS the methods
advocated in most books were NOT "kick & stick" ones.
Just as with breaking horses, it has always seemed more
than obvious to me that you get a better result with kinder
reward-based methods, even if that means the human has
to put more work into it, than if you rely on casual brutality.

Not to say I approve of anthropomorphic, never-say-No, types
of "training" !!

by gsdstudent on 25 January 2013 - 13:01

My observations; Top sport has progressed to faster, happier dogs, with more and more handlers/trainers able to teach dogs very attractive work. This is positive! The dogs of yesteryear made fewer big mistakes but looked less flashy. Todays dogs are flashy but, reverse to old days,  make bigger mistakes [ out of freedom? ] A 90 point obedience score in 1989 was without a failed exercise [ Schutzhund] just crooked this and slow that. Today 90 points in OB means there was likely a failed exercise like going around a jump. I am encouraged by the number of people who work hard at all phases of the sport and try to make a better effort in positve behaviors. In construction without out a large, strong base you can not build a tall structure . In dogs it takes a lot of people training at the beginner level to have people on top work to a high goal.              I witness better police dogs in my area. The police of yesteryear took donated dogs for their departments. Most of these dogs were labled ''problem dog'' in their orginal pet home and sent to the police to bite people. The police dog of today has evolved to a detection dog with some need for apprehension work [ depending on the dept] Most of the dogs I see are imported from Europe,  with some foundation training [ likely sport type puppy imprinting]  They help the K9 handler get further in police tactics, this is positive!                                                                                                                                                    The one step backward I believe is in pets. With all of the knowledge out there pet owners still go to a chain store and listen to a ''1 week wonder '' instructor spout garbage about training. People just want to have fun with their dogs and forget if you treat a dog like a person, he or she will treat you like a dog! The complete understanding of teaching, proofing, and motivating is not as sexy as treat, treat, and then treat some more.      The information is out there. Get involved and then evolve.

    

by Gustav on 25 January 2013 - 14:01

Sport TRAINING has changed dramatically in past forty years.....police TRAINING has undergone fewer changes....the uses of police dogs have been expanded for sure. I trained/handled narcotic detection dogs in the seventies, I train with police narcotic/explosive dogs at present....not a lot of difference in the training. The uses and applications are so much more expanded in police work than years ago because of societal changes; but once the dogs get into school just like military basic training, there is a certain level that has to be reached that makes it difficult to go to certain sport/pet approaches. This is my experience anyway.

Q Man

by Q Man on 25 January 2013 - 16:01

Training techniques have definitely changed and improved...It's the people that are very SLOW to change...I think not only have the techniques changed and improved but this means that dogs that wouldn't have been looked at before as being able to do "the" job but are doing them very well...

Everyone has their own "favored" way of training...I mean some would rather use a toy and some would rather use food...The fact is that what should be used should be dictated by the dog and not the trainer...But when neither of these works then you're left with compulsion...Compulsion was how I was taught 40 years ago...Using "Crank & Jerk" methods...This creates a reliable dog but one that can be defiant and can be not as trustworthy when left to their own...It also creates a "robot" type look...as the dog is under stress all the time...It fears doing something wrong...It's also a good way of ruining a good dog that can't take such harsh methods of training and correcting...

I think when people have dogs that they're training for themselves then they can and will take more time to create the bond and work thru problems which creates a prettier picture and a more Upbeat attitude...If a dog is being trained for profit...then the trainer is more apt to rush the training and get it done so they can move on to the next one...to make more money...So it's "money" driven...
Same goes for Police Dogs...Dept's have money invested in the dog and time and money is the driving force...Therefore the dog must be trained and get on the job...

So this tells me that people do know more about training methods but it's a case of choosing the method of training that gets the job done the quickest...

~Bob~

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 25 January 2013 - 16:01

Gustav said: " there is a certain level that has to be reached that makes it difficult to go to certain sport/pet approaches."

Gustav, I'd really like you to expand on that!  Just what do you mean by this?  Is the police approach still old-style Kohler-type methods?

ChrissieT

by ChrissieT on 25 January 2013 - 20:01

I agree totally with Q man, that the preferred method is different for each dog ie ball/toy or even just praise, but i think people that work their dogs for fun are now trying to see it from a dogs view, and not just treating them with a 'one method suits all'. The compulsion method will get results on nearly all dogs because you browbeat them into submission.
HOWEVER, and there is a big however! Dogs in nearly all breeds are going down the working/showline route. I think personally, if you try to browbeat some of the working line dogs in the GSD's or whatever, you are gonna get bitten, cos in an out and out fight, you aint gonna win. So to get results you work out what makes the dogs tick, and work with them.
I find the problem with a lot of competitive or job people is the lack of groundwork put in. Domestic carries over into our training, and that is what carried older trainers thru. And the basis of any discipline is nearly always basic obedience exercises. This is where lots lose out cos they only want to do the tracking/ manwork/jumps, or agility or flyball etc, without putting in basic control.
Pet people want to teach their dogs tricks,and not teach them how to do basic bits. If this is taught as fun for them, and the dogs, then it's a win/win situation. And the biggest change on the domestic training side was the socialisation band wagon. Training should start at ground level, and the pet socialising boom created some monsters on the dog and human sides. Owners perception of socialising is play/play and more play. Then they have a 9 month old monster, and the dog becomes another rescue victim.
Training covers more than just the dogs on the field, and it has improved in that more people are encouraged to do more with their dogs. But when it doesn't work, we also live ina disposable society, so the dogs suffer. Sometimes the gimmicky methods are too much like hard work. People can't cope with clickers, treats, balls. And when that doesn't work they turn to harnesses, headcollars, muzzles, spray collars. Sometimes there has to be a middle ground. Not the Kohler method, and not the clicker method, and just sensible constructive,positive training. Sorry folks, gone on a bit.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 25 January 2013 - 20:01

You can 'go on a bit' longer, if you like - its your topic,OOPS
Sorry its Brynjulf's topic !!!  
... but  what you've  said makes a lot of sense.  [Where's
that 'Like' button ?]

ChrissieT

by ChrissieT on 25 January 2013 - 20:01

Thanks Hundmutter. Do get a bit carried away sometimes. But dogs has been my life for a long time now. Am in a good situation that I work with dogs for a living now. Dog's I can cope with. People are a different thingRoll eyes





 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top