V or VA & SchH3 = Show/Work Mix ??? - Page 1

Calling you all to task... the old Show LINE vs. Working LINE All of you know I am fairly new to this game lets start out with that being VERY Clear !!!! The ? I am asking of you with expeirience is this simple. If a dog is V or VA rated and is a SCH3 or SAR or K-9 or Certified Therapy, Then it is in the truest of all defenitions a mix of Show/Working ? as it is obviously been shown and obviously been worked to a Standard of above titles/ratings. This is my understanding of the defenition of show... a dog who has participated in and received a rating of excllent select or excellent (ie V or VA) or a Championship. This is my understanding of the defenition of Working... a dog who has participated in and received a rating of or sch title, sar cert, k-9 cert, therapy cert, or other JOB Specific rated certification Herding should be in there as well. Are my understandings of the defenitions described above correct or incorrect ????? simple yes or no is fine, detail is fine as well, But please first and foremost answer to the understanding of the defenition is first and foremost requested. I Thank You in advance for your responses ! :-)

you could even throw in KKL in the mix of V, VA, and Champion, as my understanding is KKL is equivalent to desired structure. as is V, VA, and Champion.

In Germany, all dogs are required to achieve a show rating and kkl evaluation prior to being bred. I understand this a a breed requirement. So this is not a mix of show and working lines.

I think the arguments you may find when opening this can of worms is that some working line folks are going to say that good show dogs are kinda like a good football player in that the teacher or judge may go easy on them because it is important they play the game. The big division comes with genetics... a breeder picks a few traits they want to improve in their dogs... be it energy level, prey drive, looks to die for, etc. By picking a few traits (and there are a lot of traits that make up structure)... you basically are sacrificing some of the other traits... but the breeder can decide which dogs to or not to breed. Maybe ideally the breeder would look at the dog as a whole and say every trait has to be above average compared to the gene pool they have to work with and stick to that... EVENTUALLY you may get to a true show/work mix... but it takes infinite more work to do it that way and an objective way of comparing the dogs... and until you reach what you want (if ever), you are stuck with stock that isn't as good as what the others are breeding for their purpose.

I'm not expert but this is my understanding... Yes working lines and showlines get the SAME titles (althought average showrating for showlines is V and Working lines is SG). It is not necessarily the titles but the Structure and drives that dominates each line. It is obvously apparent to anyone with bare knowledge of GSD's from merely first glance (provided they are true and haven't been bred/mixed together. Showlines are BLACK and RED, cookie cutter type seen in those Urma pictures, many of them look nearly identical to the next. Workinglines usually have less angulation and are usually either Sable, Bi-color, Black or black and tan/red (but darker, not nearly as much tan/red as showlines). Yes a showline can be sable or black, but there's very few and they don't do well in the showring. You have been on this topic for sometime, I think you are missing the point. I don't think people are saying "showline" because he can't work, it's just thats what he IS, showline is the TYPE of GSD the result of specific breeding for many years to the same TYPE. I think you are getting offended people are calling showlines showlines if they have the same WORKING titles, thats NOT the point. People are calling showlines showlines because thats what they are. Showlines were bred for generations with structure as high priority, Workinglines have been bred for generations with drive and working ability as high priority, this created a split or branch years ago (not sure when) and its most noticable in their appearance...at first glance even sometimes just by COLOR. [[If a dog is V or VA rated and is a SCH3 or SAR or K-9 or Certified Therapy, Then it is in the truest of all defenitions a mix of Show/Working ? as it is obviously been shown and obviously been worked to a Standard of above titles/ratings.]] NO it is a SHOWLINE, yes with working titles, considered a working dog but NOT a WORKINGLINE. As far as I know no workingline has ever recieved a VA rating (although they may years ago before the difference between the lines were so noticable). Its not the titles that deem it Showline its his appearence and structure. Working titles in Germany are mandatory, so it is given a said V or VA dog will have working titles.

Echo said: [[This is my understanding of the defenition of Working... a dog who has participated in and received a rating of or sch title, sar cert, k-9 cert, therapy cert, or other JOB Specific rated certification Herding should be in there as well.]] Sure working dog...but NOT WORKINGLINE- only the color and pedigree determines that. Secondly Drive and Structure but the generalization of Workingline = high drive and Showline = good structure is more of a generalization both lines can exhibit both. Examples: Look at both... http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/341400.html http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/438933.html Take a look at the dogs behind them, they are all the same "type", the name for the difference between the first and the second "type" Showline and Workingline. All the GSD's start looking the same (German show and working lines) around the 60's-70's, I believe thats when the split occured (someone with more knowledge may want to confirm/deny that) People who favored the showring started breeding GSD's with a specific structure (although they still had to put working titles on them and would hit the trial field the least amount of times possible to get their SchH1-3 etc. so they could focus the rest of the time on the showring and getting better showratings). People who favored the SchH trial field began breeding together dogs who had above average working abilities and high points but didn't focus much on structure (although they still had to hit the showring at least once to get a Showrating/breedsurvey for breeding then they would focus on high scores on the SchH field). Just cause a working line dog enteres a showring to get a breed survey/showrating does that make him a "Showline"...NO. Just cause a Showline gets a SchH 3 does that make him a Workingline...NO It is in their pedigrees! Not sure why the huge color difference (maybe someone could answer that) but perhaps the show people don't find sable, bi-color, black very attractive.

LOL I tought I would throw a curve ball for a moment. Sable dogs can VA! LOL http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/20964.html

EchoMeadows, Your basic understanding of titles a dog must have to achieve VA or V status (along with fulfilling other requirements too) is absolutely NOT correct. I do not have time at the moment to clarify this for you. Beyond that, the issue of whether a dog can perform work *(whether it is or is not somehow titled - and SAR and Therapy dog are NOT titles), is completely different from whether the dog comes from Show or Working bloodlines. I hope someone else who knows what they are talking about will post. If not, maybe later when I have time I can try to clarify these issues for you.

Yeah Echo show lines are still show lines and working lines working. It is in their blood lines and pedigree. SAR and therapy are not titles but don't let someone tell you a SCH dog has more value. If you give the dog a job and he does it well, he can work and is a success, no matter what his breeding. Allot of working line dogs are V rated, standard to show and class them in Germany. They have to be Koered too if being bred.

Yes, 4pack. It is the pediree, generations of breeding that determine Show or Work. I see people with show line pedigree but but rate very low in class (G,SG) , doesn`t make it a working dog. I`ve seen working line come to the field and not capable of work, doesn`t make them a show line. Its not the titles but the pedigree.