Can some one please explain? - Page 1

The other thread got a little disjointed so I'm asking my questions seperatly.  Also, I will add another question.  Are competitive obedience, agility titles, competitve tracking etc. seen as proof of working ability? If so, why don't dogs who aren't suited for Sch trained in these areas?  Herding doesn't include protection work (I'm assuming) but I'm guessing a shepherd would protect it's flock. I guess my question is, are there a kind of unspoken priority list of "jobs" for the dog where one is more acceptable or preferred to improve offspring?

Here are my questions from the previous thread:

Ok, please don't anyone chamber a round and cock the trigger because I am just trying to understand not start an argument.

I don't know how to do that thing where you copy part of someone else's post and respond to it so I'm going to paraphrase.  Somebody said breeders often want to breed a female at a BH level to see how she produces.  But, how can that be ok when it's the common consensus that breeding untitled dogs puts a litter of puppies out there with the traits of a dam who has not been tested under pressure? HONESTLY I just want to understand not criticize.

The other question is: if the dam only has the disposition, drives or whatever term is appropriate to test no further than a Sch1; and if people say there are working faults in both show and working line(either too soft or too hard); then wouldn't it help if all the females would go to a Sch3 before breeding? Wouldn't that be a step toward reducing the gap between show and working lines?

Keep in mind I have never done Sch and my knowledge is from reading and internet.  But, it seems like a Sch3 is supposed to weed out the dogs that are crazed or fearful. Maybe my lack of actual experience with it makes me have too shallow an understanding of the reality or philosophy of the sport.

And, yeah, I really hope I didn't step on a landmine here.

Dawg  

"Are competitive obedience, agility titles, competitve tracking etc. seen as proof of working ability?" By themselves, no. Just like Schutzhund titles are not the sole indicator of quality. Combined, they present a nice general picture of the dog. I'd still rather see a dog who can get through some protection (sports) in addition to other things. "Somebody said breeders often want to breed a female at a BH level to see how she produces." It really sucks to spend years training and titling a female for future breeding to only find out later that she can't carry a litter or be bred - so this is understandable. But - I think only really truly experienced people should do this who know their dogs well and know their lines inside and out. And there are not alot of those people out there who really know what they've got compared to those who are breeding their young unproven females. As far as the other stuff, in a perfect world all females (amd males) would be like Schh3 kkl1 etc etc. Lots of reasons people don't want to finish their females. Or they can't and skim by and get a 1 on them just so they can justify breeding that particular bitch so they can cash in on the puppies. Probably why they are so many weak and crappy "working" (prospect) pups out there, breed a nice male to just an "okay" female...you're probably not going to produce any superstars. Then again, you've also got to look at what percentage of these "working" dog breeders are actually producing real working dogs - not sport dogs. Then you have to define "what is real work?" and then the war starts and the flamethrowers come out because it truly comes down to one's interpretation of what the breed should be.

Schutzhund has many good points but some people take a weaker dog and by working it and getting it equipment and routine trained. Most trainers/breeders know very quickly the working abilities of their dogs. The problem occurs when people have to nursemaid the dog to get it's title. Even if you don't do Schutzhund you know how strong nerved your dog is (or should anyway). People find ways to get their dog titled by shielding it's weakness. Finding a judge who won't look hard at their dog. Even in teaching agility/SAR etc you it's easy to see which dogs are the best workers and have the best nerves. Bottom line it gets back to the lure of money.

Thanks for the info.  That makes sense.

Dawg